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DSP-AX750SE Need To Improve Stereo Performance

Discussion in 'AV Receivers & Amplifiers' started by Magnet & Steel, Jan 20, 2005.

  1. Magnet & Steel

    Magnet & Steel
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    hi folks,

    i have a Yammy DSP-AX750SE amp and B&W Dm603 S3 Front Speakers and Qed silver anniversary biwire cable. after extensive testing and pulling my hair out, i have decided that i dont like the stereo sound (every other aspect of the amp i love to bits). to me it sounds smooth and clear but sort of flat and lacking a bit of oomph at lower levels. when its cranked up, it starts to give the oomph i am missing, but it still is sounding as though theres something magical missing from the mid/lower end and anything approaching what i consider to be loud sounds quite strained.

    i have tried manual setup with SPL meter and this did improve things slightly as the fronts were at -5db. using the pure direct mode, it sounds extremely clear, but with virtually no bass unless turned up really loud which isnt ideal. i do have a good sub, but i would like to be able to use the pure direct mode for certain music/situations where the sub would be too much if that makes sense?.

    so, to get the musical presence im looking for, do you think i would be better off selling the yammy and getting a more expensive receiver, or does it make more musical sense to look at a 2 channel power amp, say the Arcam p90 for example or Rotel RB1070 or would this just be overkill when using this yammy as a pre-amp?

    p.s. my speakers definately arent out of phase and everything is connected tightly.


    thanks in advance. :)
     
  2. Dfour

    Dfour
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    I use a Rotel 981 to bi-amp my front speakers and find it makes a huge difference to the sound with my 1400. I would thourghly recomend doing that. MPS is selling 3 Marantz ma500 monoblocks (thx certified 125 watts) for approx £100 each (you could try to bargain him down :D ) Those would suit you perfectly.
    http://www.avforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=179982&goto=newpost



    What is your source for music ? DVD plaer or CD player? Remember rubbish in- rubish out.
    I purposely bought a musical dvd player (Limit 900SE Cryus tuned) to replace my old Tosh and my Nad 541i and it blew the Tosh away for everything and was as good as hte Nad for music. I recently took a risk and get a second hand Arcam Alpha 5 (so I can get it Avondale tuned when I have the money :devil: ) and as it stands it blew the Limit away for music. Heaven only knows what it will sound like after Avondale have played with it :D
     
  3. Magnet & Steel

    Magnet & Steel
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    hi mate,

    cheers for the reply.

    at the moment the source is a pioneer dv-575a, but i did have an old marantz cd67se which up until a few weeks ago was my cd player which i have used with various setups, but nothing too high end, and that suffered the same lack of oomph when played through the yammy amp.

    thanks for the link to the monoblocks, but i i would prefer something new, especially my cd67se died :)

    so do you think that the rotel, arcam or even a nad c272 would be worth an audition? or anything else in this price bracket (maximum) you can reccomend would be a great help. :smashin:

    thanks again
     
  4. Dfour

    Dfour
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    I have to say that the selller is advertising the monoblocks as new effectivily as he has never used them.

    If you want to add a stereo amp to the Yammy then do so. It should be better than the yammy in stereo. The only thing is the setup and wiring of it all. Buying a new power amp will cost you the same ammount that the 750 will and in that event you could have got an arcam avr250 amp instead . I have owned 2 s/h power amps and never had a problem with them. Less of a risk than cdp as no moving parts. In the end its your call and your money.

    Going into 'snake oil' territory I assume your using some reasonable analogue interconnects between the pioneer and amp? I have found interconnects can make an appreciable difference. Even sceptical Ms. Dfour has been suprised what changing interceonnects and speaker cable can do :D
     
  5. Magnet & Steel

    Magnet & Steel
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    cheers again

    that brings me back to my original question if to just get a better av amp or grab a power amp and use the yammy as a preamp. hmmm the arcam av250 ill have a look at that one too.

    i agree about the interconnects. i have one that i like that i have had for about 6 years and its a cable talk broadcast 2. ive got a few other ones from various brands but i like that one the best. :smashin:

    decisions decisions!
     
  6. Dfour

    Dfour
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    Thats why I said go second hand first. That way you wont lose much money if you decide you dont like the sound and sell it all to get the arcam ;)
     
  7. Tejstar

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    Have you played with all your settings on the 750SE? I assume you’ve played with the volume levels for the left and right speakers? Try the tone settings on the front panel and also change your fronts to ‘small’, doing this on my Kef Q4 floorstanders gave a cleaner sound.

    The positioning of the speakers makes a massive difference too, it may be worth trying that.
     
  8. Magnet & Steel

    Magnet & Steel
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    hi tejstar, thanks for the reply.

    yes, i have been trying various settings for a few weeks now. if i change the fronts to small there isnt any difference (to me) when using the pure direct mode. its not that the sound isnt clean, its that it just lacks weight and presence unless turned up loud and then its a bit too strained sounding.

    if i up the bass by 3db in straight mode, the sound is getting towards the way i would want it to sound, but still that doesnt make a difference in the pure direct mode. i think clear but skinny would be the best way to describe it.

    as for speaker position, they are 2.5m apart and slightly angled in, they are about 20-30 cm from the rear wall.



    just a thought, but is there a test you can do with your front speakers using an SPL like you do with a sub to see what frequencies you are getting at the listening point? it might be worth a try if there is?

    cheers :)
     
  9. Andy Dee

    Andy Dee
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    I know exactly what you mean regarding Pure Direct.

    I was convinced that even though pure direct doesn't output to the Sub woofer that the crossover was somehow still active and the fronts were only getting the 100Hz and above signal, ..thats how bad it was.

    Most people agree that isn't the case.

    Luckily i am happy with 'straight' mode on the amp and 'Neo6' for dancey material.

    So, your not going mad!
     
  10. Magnet & Steel

    Magnet & Steel
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    cheers andy,

    great to know im not the only one :)
     
  11. TLHO

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    Hi all.

    Ive just got this Yamaha amp myself, and so far must say Im very happy with it, but Im not anywhere near setup nor tested, so plenty of room for upset yet. hehe

    Anyway, sorry to hijack the thread, but its the nearest one to my needs so here goes.

    I know the amp has two sets of binding posts for front speakers, but I wish to know if these are meant/allowed for biwiring, or is it purely for using another zone of speakers?? The manual doesnt state one way or the other, but does seem to imply you can use more than just as seperate speakers in another room??

    If anyone knows, would be of great help, Im just a bit worried about upsetting the resistance (as it does have a switch on the back, which i will have to chg if count as two sets??) of the amp, and also will I be using one amplifier channel between both speaker sets, ie will it sound weaker at the front than all the other channels as they all get one amp channel each.

    I can see the bi-amping route as a logical one, but likewise I would prefer to just use the one box for the mo. And again no major if not, I will just do normal biwire from speakers to single on amp, I just dont know where to start at the moment.

    Thx all for any help or hints. :lease:
     
  12. Tejstar

    Tejstar
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    You can't bi-amp using on the 750SE.
     
  13. Dfour

    Dfour
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    Yes you can use both sets of binding posts for biwiring. Im not sure if it uses the amp for both sets of posts but when I did it I noticed no loss of power or poise.

    BTW bi-amping is the way to go :devil:
     
  14. Dfour

    Dfour
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    He knows that Tejstar, wouldnt it be something if Yamaha make the 750 bi-ampable. It would blow all other amps in the price range into the weeds :eek:

     
  15. pragmatic

    pragmatic
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    You can bi wire with the a/b speakers or put two sets of speakers, i.e. home cinema speakers and ones you use for hifi and also for the multiple zone thing.

    I currantly have my yammy bi-wired, although the only real advantage is that you can use double the amount of wire so your reducing the wire resistance, which also helps with volume.

    You can bi-amp but you would require another amp a stero or monoblocks would do.
     
  16. Tejstar

    Tejstar
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    The 750 is good, but not that good :laugh:
     
  17. Tejstar

    Tejstar
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    Did you notice any difference when you bi-wired? I was planning to do this initially but decided against it due to cost. Is it worth it?
     
  18. Dfour

    Dfour
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    There is a small gain to be had from biwiring. Just replacing the jumpers on your speakers with the same cable as your using will give you most of the sound improvement from biwiring.

    Bi-wiring is a very thorny subject and has provoked many threads on this forum. You might hear no difference but it migth be earth shattering. The results are subjective to the person listening.

    I also find it strange that Yamaha chose to not allow biamoing with the 2500 or even the 1500. I dont think you can do ti with there flagship Z9 yet. IMHO with the revision of the Z9 they should add a seperate set of amps so you can run the 9.2 system AND BI-AMP AT THE SAME TIME. :devil: :smashin: Now that would be awesome. :cool:
     
  19. Tejstar

    Tejstar
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    This is how I have them setup at the moment. Wasn't sure how much of an improvement I'd have going the full hog. But I suppose your post answers my question, save the cash to spend on dvds :D
     
  20. Magnet & Steel

    Magnet & Steel
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    Dfour, is Biamoing using 2 lawnmowers at the same time? :laugh: :)
     
  21. Dfour

    Dfour
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    :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

    Yes I would think so, could be very interesting to keep them in track. would make wild shapes in the garden :D
     
  22. TLHO

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    Well, firstly thx all for replies, more info than I ever will need, so really, big thx to you all.

    Would just like to clarify that when I stated preference for the one box solution, this is in fact due to limited funds and the purchase of the one box. Hehe If I was super loaded and had bought the uber range of goods, I would ofcourse love to add extra power amps. :thumbsup:

    Must say though I am more than happy with the 750se so far, the sound quality seems very good, and as I havent fully setup the surrounds and hence listening in stereo most of the time. After all the reviews saying most AV amps just cant do stereo unless u spend nearer a £1000, Im very much relieved. :smoke: Only upset so far has been the horrible binding posts and the auto slip plastic tighteners. Ohhhh The PAIN. Luckily once again this forum set me straight and told me in fact you can use banana plugs. I had read manual on this too with no hint that you could. For something you have actually got to use some level of force to allow entry, you would think Yamaha would tell you as such. Not keen on pushing hard on the back of speaker binding posts to be honest, is there a reason they do this, as I just cant see anyone manually wiring a full 7.1 setup without plugs. :censored:

    While we on the subject though, the 750se does have front preamp outs I believe, but again just the one channel left and right, so I would only have the one amp to do front channel yes?? Again hopefully that one amp would have two sets of posts, but again this would be bi wiring rather than amping?? Im just trying to understand your tech speak on why it isnt biampable. :suicide:

    Anyway as guessed, this is due to my speakers being biwirable and having horrible connectors as my alternative, so again thx all for advice, I may just spend the money on mini connectors for the speakers. I will have a test though doing both, as currently Im using twin and earth for speaker cable (pls dont have a discussion on this, Im trying it purely due to the huge amount of advice freely available on this ere forum. Amazed and shocked oh yes. lol) so wont cost me anything to at least listen and see. I will of course let others know if I hear any differences. :smashin:

    Again THANKS all for your time and advice, this time and all the other times Ive visited just for info, its a goldmine this forum. :lesson:
     
  23. Dfour

    Dfour
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    I have looked at the back of the 750SE and it has 2 sets of front terminals so you could biwire using them. It encourages you to do it in the 1400 manual:D Using the B set of terminals and the Front pre-outs you can bi amp. All you have to do is set the 750 to only use the B (usual choises A, B, A+B) only and the pre outs to your chosen power amp :devil:. Then wire the cables from the 750se to the HFE plugs and the power amps cables to the LFE and you have bi-amping loving :smashin: :lesson:

    Im in the process of making my own speaker cable from braided cat6 cable to see if its better then my QED Silver anniversary cable. Its better quality then cat 5 but much stiffer as it has a central divider.

    I would recommend these power protectors if you dont have any or have a funny power suply. Fantastic :smashin:
    http://www.ebuyer.com/customer/prod...2hvd19wcm9kdWN0X3Jldmlld3M=&product_uid=57866
     
  24. dstev2000

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    how about the bass out setting? is that set to "both" or "front" if there is no sub, not sure if it makes a difference in pure direct but its worth checking.
     
  25. Mango Bob

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    I agree PD mode does seem to lack bass at times - but I find it really depends on how the CD is mixed. some sound great and have plenty of bass, others I listen to in Straight to boost the bass - unfortunatly this loses some of the clarity.

    Adding a stereo amp would definitely help -but that's exactly what I was trying to avoid when I bought the 750! D'oh!

    Some subs can be wired into the high level speaker outputs to work in Pure Direct mode. My MS309 can be wired at high level, BUT you can't connect high and low level at the same time so I'd loose the LFE channel in movies.
     
  26. CosmicOne

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    Dfour

    some questions to u great dude about Bi-amping:

    i have a RXV650 which is like the 750 so i can biamp my front Wharfedale8.4 spakers as u said & i have a spare KenWood Reciver

    the questions:

    1-what do u think will be better with HF & which for LF (kenWood VS Yamaha)??

    2-how do i set the volume on both amps??or i set it as i like best like raising the volume of the HF in some songs or music & raising the LF on other's?? but if i want them equall how can i get that???
     
  27. Lostinapc

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    hey dfour,
    i'm wanting to improve my stereo performance too :)
    i thought that i'd need a pre-amp and power amp if i wanted to use the preouts from my receiver?
    would this setup (a power amp) be comparable to having a seperate stereo amp connected to the preouts?
    thanks!
     
  28. spk

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    erm sorry for the noobness of this question but....

    reading all of the above seems to suggest that you can use the A+B option to bi-wire the fronts but not to bi-amp them, yes ?. if that is true then how do you wire it up, A for high, B for low ???

    in my defence i must say i'm not the brightest button in the box at this time of morning ...

    dazed, tired and in need of more coffee...


    spk
     
  29. CosmicOne

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    Lostinapc

    i think the pre outs of ur Reciver means it has the Preamp inside it,u just need a spearte stereo amp connected to the front PreOuts

    spk
    i doesn't matter if A is for high freq or low freq,just connect any of them (HF or LF) to A & the Other to B.

    am connecting my RXV650 A to LF & B to HF i doesn't matter atall.
     
  30. TLHO

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    Brilliant, and once again massive thanks Dfour and everyone else for your assistance, but thats really cool advice on biamping dfour, and for sure will keep my eyes open for a budget power amp, I dont suppose Yamaha make one for this very reason???

    Regardless, weeeeeeee great news, and having tried biamping, even on low end amps and been much impressed with the extra depth it seemed to have, I will indeed have a bash at this, but for mo, thx again for your help Dfour. :thumbsup:

    And also thanks for comments on cabling, I am just trying mains due to its price and the fact many sed you wont notice difference, I did also try and do some CAT5 cables, but must say it is not fun stripping back 24 ends per terminal. Am I missing something, like a useful tool for this, I didnt even get one end done before becoming very very bored and annoyed, the ends are soooooo weeeee. lol But again thx for comments, so you would still say decent speaker cable beats the cat5 job, but you still have to spend at least £6 a metre to do this??

    And thx for comments on surge protectors, I do actually have one of these, again bought in my stereo obsessed years, I think by Cambridge Audio Deisgn or someit....

    And LOL at the fact your manual advises you to do this, I think thats where Yamaha saved all its money on the 750se, the manual seems to avoid saying anything clearly. hehe No advice as to wether or not it accepts 4mm Bananas (as we all now know, it does) or if you should even biwire using the zone spkers... It hints at it in places, but never says if it is ok. :nono:

    But anyway, good to know Im not the only one who struggles, and even better to know theres somewhere I come and remove said struggles. :smashin:
     

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