Downsize/grade... Kef or M&K?

PSM1

Distinguished Member
Do not want to offend but being devils advocate your budget seems to be expanding a little with the Yamaha amp etc. Are you really going to be freeing that much money up with this dowgrade by the time you finish. I know your current amp was £1.5k but secondhand electronics lose a fair bit of value (just look at the silly prices AV recievers sell off at towards the end of the year) hence you may only get half of what you paid for it back (hopefully you will get more). This will mean you only free up £300 by the time you get the Yamaha which does not seem like much considering the drop in quality. Now £300 maybe alot of money at the moment so may still be worthwhile but your original idea of a secondhand or older reciever for £200 or so seemed better. As I said do not want to offend but just wanted to make sure the upscaling budget bug did not bite too much and you end up downgrading with no real monentary gain!!!
 

Scott_Mac

Distinguished Member
PSM1 said:
Do not want to offend but being devils advocate your budget seems to be expanding a little with the Yamaha amp etc. Are you really going to be freeing that much money up with this dowgrade by the time you finish. I know your current amp was £1.5k but secondhand electronics lose a fair bit of value (just look at the silly prices AV recievers sell off at towards the end of the year) hence you may only get half of what you paid for it back (hopefully you will get more). This will mean you only free up £300 by the time you get the Yamaha which does not seem like much considering the drop in quality. Now £300 maybe alot of money at the moment so may still be worthwhile but your original idea of a secondhand or older reciever for £200 or so seemed better. As I said do not want to offend but just wanted to make sure the upscaling budget bug did not bite too much and you end up downgrading with no real monentary gain!!!

Comments always welcome... But trust me, I've done the sums and even thinking conservatively I'll be ending up with a lot more than £300. Like with Kef I can buy Yamaha on special rates too :) I'll be selling Dynaudio speakers, Chord Epic, Partington Stands etc also!
 

Member 116841

Distinguished Member
Not the HD sadly... Though I have no idea what the difference is!
Not a huge amount, but would've been a bonus.

Suitable with the above Yamaha?

They're a sensible price if I factor in the sale of the K4's as that goes someway to covering the difference between buying some K5's or S85's.
THe M&K's will be fine with the Yamaha. I would normally recomend something slightly higher p the range, but if you're not after high levels, it should cope fine. The MA's are an easier load, and work very well with the Yamaha receivers, no question (as would the KEF's).
 

Scott_Mac

Distinguished Member
Dav1dF said:
Not a huge amount, but would've been a bonus.

THe M&K's will be fine with the Yamaha. I would normally recomend something slightly higher p the range, but if you're not after high levels, it should cope fine. The MA's are an easier load, and work very well with the Yamaha receivers, no question (as would the KEF's).

Sadly the MA's have now gone!

I shall continue the quest... Thanks for the advice as always :)
 

Scott_Mac

Distinguished Member
Well, having lived with the M&K and Marantz setup for a few days, it's not something I would necessarily recommend... it's not 'bright' but it is a little too forward in presentation for my liking. I haven't re-run Audessy but did change crossover points and speaker sizes to small so it may not be a totally representative study!

The Yamaha has arrived and will be setup hopefully tonight - fingers crossed it tames the edginess a little!

The loss of bass across the front speakers (which may be down to a setup) is suggesting that maybe the Gemini isn't quite up to it, or maybe i'm just recalling the M&K 150 I heard when i first listened to the LCR's!

That said, i'm certainly happy enough with the overall result in terms of sound and money in my pocket!
 

Rob Sinden

Distinguished Member
AVForums Sponsor
I'd recommend setting the system up manually rather than using Audyssey with the free mic. The microphones given away with Receivers simply aren't good enough quality and you can end up with some very random readings.
Part of MK's design standard is to try and recreate how close the actor is action is from the listener. So close micd recordings sound very intimate for example whilst most dialogue and the rest of the soundstage will be set further back. I think you'll hear more variety in soundtracks with MK speakers while most hifi speakers do tend to create a soundstage where everything appears as its coming from a similar distance from you. It takes a little getting used to but it's a much more faithful recreation of what the recording engineer and Director intended you hear….if that's what you are after.
 

Rob Sinden

Distinguished Member
AVForums Sponsor
With regards to the performance of MK with music I'd say they're not trying to be musical. They are designed to be as accurate as possible so recording engineers can hear precisely what is being laid down in the mix.
Most films have an excellent musical score – often orchestral and this music as well as well recorded dialogue and special effects all have to be reproduced as accurately as possible. It's not just MK's but most studio monitors that sound different to hifi speakers which in fact are not entirely accurate but arguably may sound nicer.
It's the old reference v preference argument. You simply won't find hifi speakers used in studios as there's not accurate enough but this isn't what everyone is looking for.
 

Scott_Mac

Distinguished Member
Thanks Rob - useful information. Your comments on dialogue do seem to echo what i'm seeing - at times dialogue seems very quiet yet explosions etc blow your face off!

I certainly wasn't after something to compete on musicality with the Dyn's, as I know that wouldn't happen... i was (and indeed am!) watching more films etc, hence figuring that for the moment, M&K's were probably worth a punt.

My Marantz was the first experience i've had with an auto setup and to be honest I was very impressed with the settings it gave. My above summary probably is a little unfair on the M&K's as i only tweaked the basic settings. With the Yamaha I have now i'll see what I get with YPAO and then try manual setup to see if it is any better.
 

Rob Sinden

Distinguished Member
AVForums Sponsor
In principal I'm 100% behind room correction - its the only way you'll get a really accurate audio system which is personally is what I'm after. The problem is that the quality of room correction systems varies so much and its very easy to damage a mic.

In general I think people should start with doing the correct manual set up and then see if the EQ improves the system. Often the bass level will be reduced as EQ should never be used to boost a signal - so the sub level will then need increasing to keep a similar tonal balance and to give a fair A-B comparison of what the EQ system is doing.
 

lordlemon

Active Member
In principal I'm 100% behind room correction - its the only way you'll get a really accurate audio system which is personally is what I'm after. The problem is that the quality of room correction systems varies so much and its very easy to damage a mic.

In general I think people should start with doing the correct manual set up and then see if the EQ improves the system. Often the bass level will be reduced as EQ should never be used to boost a signal - so the sub level will then need increasing to keep a similar tonal balance and to give a fair A-B comparison of what the EQ system is doing.

Good point thats my experience with Onkyo 876 superb with DD 5.1 but way to harsh on DTSMA dont you EQ first then do Manual set up after.

Also i find Dynamic EQ superb it adds so much ambience to my system very flat without
 

Scott_Mac

Distinguished Member
Well, set the Yamaha up this evening. Slightly puzzled that on the auto setup it declared my M&K's as 'Large' at the front but then set the sub crossover at 110Hz.... couple of tweaks later and i'm really happy. To be completely honest, with these speakers, the Yamaha is a far better amp than the Marantz was - the up front sound has disappeared and everything seems really detailed and clear with great imaging.

I shan't be going back and doing the proper setup with the Marantz as at the moment selling it is all justified. The Marantz was stunning with my Dyn's though - so horses for courses!
 

Rob Sinden

Distinguished Member
AVForums Sponsor
That's precisely the problem I find with most auto EQ systems - setting crossover points wrong is really going to screw up a system. In my experience the only way to get reliable results is to set the crossover points for the system according to the speakers capabilities. So with MK's for example this would usually be 80Hz for all the speakers although sometimes if the sub is up to it you may way to go a little higher.

The other point about auto EQ is that what it does for a system will vary tremendously from room to room, so sometimes it'll increase HF while in other rooms it'll be decreased. All it should be doing is removing room problems and leaving all the speakers tonally much more even. So what you hear from it in one room will rarely be duplicated on exactly the same system in a different room.
 

Member 116841

Distinguished Member
Part of the problem with auto setups not being accurate is the room itself. You can re-run an auto setup and place the mic an inch or two forwards or back and get quite different results.
 

Scott_Mac

Distinguished Member
The Marantz system was good in that it allowed multiple settings.... i'm going to stick with it a few days and let everything settle down with the Yamaha. I actually have left the fronts as 'Large' for the moment as they do have a pretty good extension and i do like the bass to be a little more upfront - given the limitations of sub location.

I'll trial switching them to small at a later stage.... also the EQ is certainly useful in my room, it is far from optimal in terms of layout, materials, surfaces etc.... and at this juncture i'm extremely happy with the results!

Oh and David, it appears that they are indeed your former M&K's - so says the shipping label anyway :D
 

Member 116841

Distinguished Member
Yes, the 651's were mine originally. Cracking little speakers, and if you do ever upgrade your receiver, they'll grow with it.

Don't forget thought that they naturally roll off at 80Hz, so setting them to large may cause damage to them at high volumes, and might cause your amp to cut out if it ends up working too hard (they're 4ohms). I would cross them over at 80Hz minimum, otherwise they'll be trying reproduce frequencies they can't comfortably produce, or that you won't even hear..
 

Scott_Mac

Distinguished Member
New Yamaha supports 4ohm speakers - thankfully!

They haven't been pushed yet, but I shall adjust them to small and see how they sound then, as you say - seems silly to send frequencies they can't produce!
 

Scott_Mac

Distinguished Member
1 bedroom flat... always careful at volume!

It's never above -10dB and usually more like -20dB!
 

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