double decker trains?

R

rhoamish

Guest
I hear the government is toying with the idea of introducing double decker trains. They have these in Holland, and they're excellent. Of course, it helps that the Dutch network is cheap and punctual...

It also helps that Holland is flat, of course. Does anyone know if double decker trains will fit through the existing tunnels on the rail network? And are there any plans to make the trains affordable, clean and punctual?

I love travelling by train, it's lovely on the continent. Unfortunately, it's a hideous experience over here.
 

LV426

Administrator
Staff member
There used to be double-decker trains of a sort on the Southern years ago. They end up being extremely cramped due to our small loading gauge. It's not just tunnels but bridges and other lineside equipment.

The British Government (whatever the "colour") has never had any plans whatsoever to improve the Rail network. Darling is a bus fanatic. When Tony's do nothing useful* government first appeared three terms ago, then then transport secretary, Prescott promised all manner of things, none of which have been delivered nor are likely to be.

* (Not that I'm claiming any of the alternatives would be any better).
 

overkill

Distinguished Member
LV426 said:
There used to be double-decker trains of a sort on the Southern years ago. They end up being extremely cramped due to our small loading gauge. It's not just tunnels but bridges and other lineside equipment.

The British Government (whatever the "colour") has never had any plans whatsoever to improve the Rail network. Darling is a bus fanatic. When Tony's do nothing useful* government first appeared three terms ago, then then transport secretary, Prescott promised all manner of things, none of which have been delivered nor are likely to be.

* (Not that I'm claiming any of the alternatives would be any better).
Largely agree.

With a privatised public transport network anyway, how can the govt force (using tax payers money) improvements on them? Locally, and I've spoken to their staff about this, Arriva, a European company with no idea of what our macro or micro level needs are, have sacrificed route after route and racked fares up and up. How, is the govt supposed to stop them?

I agree at the 'integration' and 'leadership' level the current govt's done jack, but without re-nationalising how are they supposed to improve what's happening at the basic level?

Not a statement I hasten to add, just a thought.............

On topic, I wondered about the access question too. Our rail networks got plenty of tunnels and bridges the current trains only just squeeze under!
 

HMHB

Distinguished Member
They have double decker trains in Lisbon as well, our system is a disgrace compared to the rest of Europe. When you consider they try and charge you £170 return to London they really are taking the :censored:
I strongly believe that the rail system needs to be run as a non profit making concern by the Government - I know this might mean more taxes for us, but in the long run I would be looking towards cheaper rail travel theat is subsidised as an incentive to use it. Mind you, in a lot of areas the system cannot cope with the number of passengers wanting to use it anyway :rolleyes:
 

Bat-man

Well-known Member
They also have them in the States.
Here is one in San Francisco:

 

Garrett

Moderator
Was going to say they have the double decker ones in the states and they use the upper levels for viewing on scenic routes.
 

Bat-man

Well-known Member
Garrett said:
Was going to say they have the double decker ones in the states and they use the upper levels for viewing on scenic routes.
The train in S.F. is on the Pacific Coast run from San Diego to the Canadian border.
 

LV426

Administrator
Staff member
overkill said:
With a privatised public transport network anyway, how can the govt force (using tax payers money) improvements on them? Locally, and I've spoken to their staff about this, Arriva, a European company with no idea of what our macro or micro level needs are, have sacrificed route after route and racked fares up and up. How, is the govt supposed to stop them?

I agree at the 'integration' and 'leadership' level the current govt's done jack, but without re-nationalising how are they supposed to improve what's happening at the basic level?
Last time I looked, almost all rail services are operated by private companies under exclusive Franchise from the Government. The Government, then, could, if it chose to do so, include terms in the Franchise deal for fare levels and/or service improvements. But it won't. Of course it won't. No British government ever has done anything useful on the subject of transport (and I don't just mean trains and/or buses).
 

MartinImber

Active Member
When run as 4 distinct companies they tended to provide services which made money - they made money by carrying passengers and freight.

There were also responsible for their lines, stations, and stock.

The big 4 also were excellent employers.

But since everything was under the control of a company they didn't have to deal with track owners and other operators.

The GWR used to make a profit as well.

Perhaps the original nationalisation in 1948 was a mistake?
 

Chris Muriel

Distinguished Member
Have them in Canada too.
A couple of years ago we took the "Rocky Mountain Express" from Vancouver to Calgary. You pay more for the "gold service" but that gives you the upper deck panoramic views - well worth it.

Chris Muriel, Manchester
 

LV426

Administrator
Staff member
Here is the previous British attempt at a double-decker.
 

HMHB

Distinguished Member
Looks like that was the last time our train system was updated :D
 

colinwheeler

Active Member
JohnG said:
I know this might mean more taxes for us, but in the long run I would be looking towards cheaper rail travel theat is subsidised as an incentive to use it.
No more ability for the goverment to have stealth taxes!!! I wish we could just pay for what we used as individuals. I live and work in London, nice and close to each other, don't use a car and don't wish to subsidise people who want to live far away from thier work places by paying for inefficient overweight overland rail companies top heavy with management.
 

Mr_Wistles

Distinguished Member
They have they in Oz also.

On the Oz train all the seats move so if you are sitting with your back to someone you can pull a level that moves the entire back of the seat to the other side.
 

HMHB

Distinguished Member
The seats move on some trains in this country, mostly due to the fact that they are falling to bits ;)
 

Bat-man

Well-known Member
JohnG said:
I know this might mean more taxes for us,
No more taxes. Absolutely no more taxes!
 
R

rhoamish

Guest
LV426 said:
Here is the previous British attempt at a double-decker.
That certainly looks half-assed enough to me!

Is there really room in that for two decks? Did people have to lie down? Was the upper floor marked 'for elves, goblins and dwarves only'??

Would we really see much benefit from double deckers on our rail network, or would it just be more effective to put more trains on the existing lines?
 

IDkipper

Standard Member
They have these in Switzerland...very efficient and comfortable as you would expect just like.......(First class Midland mainline not!)
 

ush flynn

Novice Member
rhoamish said:
Would we really see much benefit from double deckers on our rail network, or would it just be more effective to put more trains on the existing lines?
No increased traffic would make more delays. We cant have longer trains because they wont fit on platforms, so up is the only way.... like buildings

And to the guy who said he doesnt want to pay for people to travel into london... We cant all fit in london, something like 5 million people commute every day, if you can find them all accomodation for what they are paying now then ill give you every single thing i own. You arent paying for us to comute in, WE are, we pay more than you do ok? zones? i live in 6 and you probably live in something closer than 3, that means ill pay at least double what you pay to travel perhaps only 4 miles more
 

colinwheeler

Active Member
ush flynn said:
And to the guy who said he doesnt want to pay for people to travel into london... We cant all fit in london, something like 5 million people commute every day, if you can find them all accomodation for what they are paying now then ill give you every single thing i own. You arent paying for us to comute in, WE are, we pay more than you do ok? zones? i live in 6 and you probably live in something closer than 3, that means ill pay at least double what you pay to travel perhaps only 4 miles more
Okay okay, I did not say I am paying for you to travel into London, I was saying I do not want to through increased taxes!:)
 

Woodywizz

Distinguished Member
Recently took the doubledecker train from Schipol airport to Amsterdam - no overcrowding and it pulled into the station at the very second it was due...brilliant punctuality and certainly puts our rail network to shame.
 

MartinImber

Active Member
Russell_Piper said:
They have they in Oz also.

On the Oz train all the seats move so if you are sitting with your back to someone you can pull a level that moves the entire back of the seat to the other side.
They also have a clone of the HST - except it is not as fast

LV426 said:
Here is the previous British attempt at a double-decker.
The 4DD - a centre car was scrapped only a couple of years ago - I think they are down to the last two power cars.
 

overkill

Distinguished Member
LV426 said:
Last time I looked, almost all rail services are operated by private companies under exclusive Franchise from the Government. The Government, then, could, if it chose to do so, include terms in the Franchise deal for fare levels and/or service improvements. But it won't. Of course it won't. No British government ever has done anything useful on the subject of transport (and I don't just mean trains and/or buses).
They are since, and only since, Railtrack was folded. The govt under the network contract however, has no powers to do any of the things you suggest. As to your other comments, I agree 110%.

Govt in this country led the way in terms of transport networks - 120 years ago. Then like, everything else, it let the whole thing go to pot.

The integration on Continental networks puts ours to shame.:(
 

Peridot

Well-known Member
rhoamish said:
Does anyone know if double decker trains will fit through the existing tunnels on the rail network? And are there any plans to make the trains affordable, clean and punctual?
The short answer is no ... and no :(
 

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