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Dolby Vision

Telumehtar

Active Member
I want to create a thread just about Dolby Vision, not related to specific equipment. I'm not sure where to put it because most sub-forums are about specific equipment, but Bluray is at one end of the chain and is also one easy way to directly compare Dolby Vision with HDR10.

Just gathering up some things I have found out. I will update this post as I learn more -- but not necessarily quickly.

Colour grading and tone mapping
It is worth reading the Alexis Van Hurkman article about HDR colour grading. It teaches a lot about HDR and colour grading in general, but has things to say specifically about Dolby Vision:

"On an HDR television, however, both the base and enhancement layers will be recombined, using additional “artistic guidance” metadata generated by the colorist to determine how the resulting HDR image highlights should be scaled to fit the varied peak luminance levels and highlight performance that’s available on any given Dolby Vision compatible television."

I think this artistic guidance boils down to scene-by-scene tone mapping curves guided by the colorist (the person who does the colour grading of the raw camera footage to make it look pretty), instead of the fixed tone-mapping curves used for HDR10 by the TV manufacturers. Vincent Yeoh explains tone mapping in a YouTube video. It is the method by which a TV chooses to display colours that are encoded as brighter than the TV can display. Importantly, in HDR10 there is no standard for doing this. Dolby Vision brings it under the control of the artist instead of the TV manufacturer.

I managed to photograph a difference between Dolby Vision and HDR presentation on my LG E6 TV. The photos just show that in HDR10 some blue and white highlight detail has been rendered as entirely white. In Dolby Vision the details are preserved. This is presumably because the person doing the colour grading for that shot chose to use a different tone-mapping curve on TVs that can not show the full brightness.

Equipment
Players

Dolby vision supporting players are LG UP970 (awaiting firmware update) or Oppo UDP 203 (firmware version 20XEU-45-0605 or later).

AV Receivers
To pass through an AV receiver, some degree of support is needed. Yamaha have promised updates for RX-V681, RX-A860, RX-A1060, RX-A2060, RX-A3060 and CX-A5100.

Denon have promised updates for AVR-X1300W, AVR-X2300W, AVR-X3300W, AVR-X4300H, AVR-X6300H.

Possibly other manufacturers have also promised updates for some models.

Interestingly, I have found that if I have Dolby Vision working on my player and my TV, I can pause the disc, rewire my HDMI cables through my Yamaha 1060 AVR, resume playback and Dolby Vision keeps working!

TVs
Dolby have listed LG OLEDs (starting from the 2016 models), Philips, Vizio and TCL TVs that support Dolby Vision.

Dolby Vision Reviews
John Archer has a review of Despicable Me in Dolby Vision in Forbes. I am very skeptical of his claims about its improvement of motion and detail because I can't think of a mechanism for this other than different TV settings in different modes.
 

mark800

Distinguished Member
Interesting data coming out of an AVS Forum poll asking "Does your TV or AV system support Dolby Vision?"

So far (at the time of writing this):

75% of respondents with a TV answered that they either already had a TV with Dolby Vision or intended to buy one.

Of those with a Dolby Vision TV, 92% of respondents said they either had a Dolby Vision UHD player or intended to buy one.

AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews - View Poll Results
 

Billy Goodgun

Distinguished Member
I have, in the end, plumped for a 2017 LG OLED, which therefore has Dolby Vision. But I stand by my earlier statements: surely Dolby Vision stands to be the tiniest fraction of viewing content for just about anyone, for probably some years (even if it does take hold - which it might not).

How many UHD films do you plan to buy and watch? And as a sub-set: of those, how many will actually support Dolby Vision?

HLG is much more important, IMO.

I also think more data are needed before anyone can conclude that Dolby Vision discs are better than HDR10.

I'm interested in the outcome, but I remain amazed at the notional support for a format that virtually no-one has even seen yet.
 

mark800

Distinguished Member
All absolutely fair points, but to me it is like Dolby Atmos on my AV receiver. As a proportion of total viewing time, blu rays with Dolby Atmos (or DTS X) are probably a small fraction of the total content consumed. However, when I do watch/listen to a great movie with Dolby Atmos, it is really exciting and enhances the experience. I just couldn't buy an AV receiver without Atmos/DTS-X.

There are very few Dolby Vision discs now (at the start), but then there were very few Atmos/DTS-X discs a while ago, and yet the format has flourished. It has to start somewhere. In a few months time, if Disney enters the market, I think the situation will be very different for Dolby Vision.

In terms of performance comparisons, I absolutely agree that we don't fully know what the performance will be. However, as an OLED owner, I believe that dynamic metadata potentially could enhance such displays noticeably due to limited brightness levels. Given that we don't know, it seems unwise to purchase a TV without Dolby Vision, as you are deliberately closing the door to something that may make a significant difference.

In some ways, it's better to have it, just in case, even if you are extremely skeptical. With so many excellent 2017 OLEDs available, there doesn't seem anything to lose by opting for a TV with Dolby Vision. How many AV receivers would be sold currently that didn't incorporate Atmos and DTS-X?
 

Billy Goodgun

Distinguished Member
Again, all fair points! Can't really disagree with what you've said - suppose it's just a question of priorities.

Tbf, I'm not really sceptical about it as a format, more just how much it'll be applied in practical use. I'm on board with the concept.

And maybe I should just think about it more as you do with Atmos: an excellent add-on for "special occasions" :)
 

AlanX

Active Member
As I see it, what ultimately matters when it comes to DV is whether the screen can display it correctly. So we have to look at which 2018 TVs can 'do' DV.
Considering the big four (which I regard as LG, Samsung, Sony and Panasonic), LG is doing 'full-fat DV, Sony are offering a sort of 'DV-Lite' (with all the issues that this creates elsewhere in the chain). Crucially, it looks like Samsung and Panasonic are not going for DV in any shape. Panasonic high-end players are catering for DV, just for use with those non-Panasonic TVs that can do DV.
For AV Receivers, for those I've looked at, it seems there may be problems with on-screen display with a DV source. I guess many of us will have to ensure that a DV source doesn't have to go through our AVRs to get to our rare DV TV.
All of this suggests that DV is something most of the big players are reluctant to fully support, or are unable to do so.
Then there is the relative scarcity of DV discs, though this might change in time. But if they can only be viewed on LG TVs (and perhaps Sonys with the right player), will there be sufficient impetus to broaden its application (especially as it isn't free!)?
Of course, 2019 is another year. Let's hope it's not another year of uncertainty.
 

ashenfie

Well-known Member
As I see it, what ultimately matters when it comes to DV is whether the screen can display it correctly. So we have to look at which 2018 TVs can 'do' DV.
Considering the big four (which I regard as LG, Samsung, Sony and Panasonic), LG is doing 'full-fat DV, Sony are offering a sort of 'DV-Lite' (with all the issues that this creates elsewhere in the chain). Crucially, it looks like Samsung and Panasonic are not going for DV in any shape. Panasonic high-end players are catering for DV, just for use with those non-Panasonic TVs that can do DV.
For AV Receivers, for those I've looked at, it seems there may be problems with on-screen display with a DV source. I guess many of us will have to ensure that a DV source doesn't have to go through our AVRs to get to our rare DV TV.
All of this suggests that DV is something most of the big players are reluctant to fully support, or are unable to do so.
Then there is the relative scarcity of DV discs, though this might change in time. But if they can only be viewed on LG TVs (and perhaps Sonys with the right player), will there be sufficient impetus to broaden its application (especially as it isn't free!)?
Of course, 2019 is another year. Let's hope it's not another year of uncertainty.
Current Panasonic are supporting DV on UHD players. Tide has turn in favour of DV so we will see how long they hold out with TVs
 

DELUCAS

Distinguished Member
Current Panasonic are supporting DV on UHD players. Tide has turn in favour of DV so we will see how long they hold out with TVs

Hearing that the new HDR + format will leap frog over Dolby vision in terms of pic Quality etc

So in terms of being superior it will be HDR , Dolby Vision , HDR10 +

Time will tell when its released but because its free will be more widely adopted as such .
 

AlanX

Active Member
Sorry, I don't see the tide turning, at least not yet. The only TVs on which you can view the DV output from a Panasonic player are from LG. Just possible that the Panasonic players will include DV-Lite that will be compatible with Sony's fudge on their new TVs. But DV out of any player will definitely not do anything for anyone with a Panasonic or Samsung screen (or indeed some of the other also-rans). At least not this year.
I'm personally not yet committed to any 4K solution (still limping along with FHD!), so I hope I can be fairly objective about the issue while looking for my upgrade later this year.
It's hard to say at this stage whether reluctance to incorporate DV in several camps is a firm policy decision or just waiting till they can negotiate the right price with Dolby.
 

AlanX

Active Member
Hearing that the new HDR + format will leap frog over Dolby vision
I don't know where you're hearing that, but it is encouraging. When you refer to "the new HDR + format", do you mean HDR10+ or something even newer?
History tells us that adoption is everything. How often have we heard the Betamax/VHS 'parable'?
 

DELUCAS

Distinguished Member
I don't know where you're hearing that, but it is encouraging. When you refer to "the new HDR + format", do you mean HDR10+ or something even newer?
History tells us that adoption is everything. How often have we heard the Betamax/VHS 'parable'?

Yes HDR10 + correct
Well if it dont beat it it maybe on par to Dolby Vision ?
Wont know till its released to players / Tv’s that can take it soon

But least something new to look forward to and compare .
More choice is always good :)
 

dms

Active Member
More choice is always good :)

More choice gave us vhs/betamax and Blu-ray/hddvd.

I don't see the hdr formats as Dts/dd equivalents right now.

Format or even codec wars are a right royal pain for us consumers and in many cases just delay format adoption. So I wish industry would get it's house in order.

Frankly the "choice" we are talking about here with different codecs isn't the consumers!
 

Khazul

Well-known Member
It's hard to say at this stage whether reluctance to incorporate DV in several camps is a firm policy decision or just waiting till they can negotiate the right price with Dolby.

I dont think the price is prohibitive if the number of budget vendors with DV is anything to go by.
I think HDR10+ is entirely a case of not-invented-here syndrome, specifically on the part of Samsung.

I cannot imagine that there will be a real upfront and ongoing cost difference between licensing, integrating and certifying DV code vs developing and testing HDR10+ code and then certifying it and then ongoing support etc.
The real difference is that DV takes too much away from what the vendors can mess with and instead put more control in the DV end to end process including grading. That said, those doing DV grading can (and do) screw things up just as badly as TV vendors may due to overly messing with mapping in the TV.

Much as I dislike that HDR10+ has appeared, this isn't from a tech perspective, but rather from the effect of fragmenting an already tiny media market to the extent I wonder if either will now ever take off in a time frame that really matters (ie before displays achieve a PQ level that no-longer required dynamic HDR). Before HDR10+ appears, its looked like DV was getting reasonable traction end to end allowing us to enjoy the best visual experience without worrying about which flavour of dynamic HDR was supported by a TV or player or media. Now that has kind of gone to sh*t so the chances of you finding you desired movie in the dynamic HDR format that suits your gear choice has probably been halved at best and at worst content producers may not even bother at all and instead stick with plain HDR.

You currently cannot get a TV with both HDR10+ and DV (AFAIK) so if you have Netflix and amazon then only one of them will be ideal for you PQ wise (Netflix still support DV, Amazon have indicated they will support HDR10+ instead) so the fragmentation of content has already started with the result that we will be the ones who will loose out until this mess eventually resolves itself.
 

ashenfie

Well-known Member
I dont think the price is prohibitive if the number of budget vendors with DV is anything to go by.
I think HDR10+ is entirely a case of not-invented-here syndrome, specifically on the part of Samsung.

I cannot imagine that there will be a real upfront and ongoing cost difference between licensing, integrating and certifying DV code vs developing and testing HDR10+ code and then certifying it and then ongoing support etc.
The real difference is that DV takes too much away from what the vendors can mess with and instead put more control in the DV end to end process including grading. That said, those doing DV grading can (and do) screw things up just as badly as TV vendors may due to overly messing with mapping in the TV.

Much as I dislike that HDR10+ has appeared, this isn't from a tech perspective, but rather from the effect of fragmenting an already tiny media market to the extent I wonder if either will now ever take off in a time frame that really matters (ie before displays achieve a PQ level that no-longer required dynamic HDR). Before HDR10+ appears, its looked like DV was getting reasonable traction end to end allowing us to enjoy the best visual experience without worrying about which flavour of dynamic HDR was supported by a TV or player or media. Now that has kind of gone to sh*t so the chances of you finding you desired movie in the dynamic HDR format that suits your gear choice has probably been halved at best and at worst content producers may not even bother at all and instead stick with plain HDR.

You currently cannot get a TV with both HDR10+ and DV (AFAIK) so if you have Netflix and amazon then only one of them will be ideal for you PQ wise (Netflix still support DV, Amazon have indicated they will support HDR10+ instead) so the fragmentation of content has already started with the result that we will be the ones who will loose out until this mess eventually resolves itself.

I'm sure it simply a case that that less licences fees you need to retail the box the better. HDR10+ has no fee but also no media and no streaming services (that I'm am aware of). So basically right now no real use.

So way put any effort into R&D unless you want to develop an alternative standard.

BBC has HLG and that has some TV support and therefore will be main stream iPlayer at some point.

Why some people are getting the nickers in a twist about DV I'm not too sure. Apple has used it for sure and I have one movie with DV (start wars) the first in 2 years since it got my player. I guess the odd Netflix movie has it but most are not even HDR10.

So DV its icing on a cake that I have not invested in. In time I'm guessing that DV will sink or swim, right now out in front.

Next year might just get my 2nd OLED TV and as LG are very good at ensure all the right boxes are ticked i am sure that they will HDR10+ if the see it having any legs.
 

nekromantik

Active Member
I'm sure it simply a case that that less licences fees you need to retail the box the better. HDR10+ has no fee but also no media and no streaming services (that I'm am aware of). So basically right now no real use.

So way put any effort into R&D unless you want to develop an alternative standard.

BBC has HLG and that has some TV support and therefore will be main stream iPlayer at some point.

Why some people are getting the nickers in a twist about DV I'm not too sure. Apple has used it for sure and I have one movie with DV (start wars) the first in 2 years since it got my player. I guess the odd Netflix movie has it but most are not even HDR10.

So DV its icing on a cake that I have not invested in. In time I'm guessing that DV will sink or swim, right now out in front.

Next year might just get my 2nd OLED TV and as LG are very good at ensure all the right boxes are ticked i am sure that they will HDR10+ if the see it having any legs.

Amazon has said they will support HDR10+.
Fox (could change after Disney buy out) and Warner has shown support for HDR10+.
However they not said if they are exclusive HDR10+ or not.
Im hoping Disney announce DV support which will be a huge hit to HDR10+ as Disney was one of the major reasons Bluray beat HD DVD.
 

JMB 1962

Active Member
Don’t forget that the Apple TV 4K provides a lot of Dolby Vision content. In fact, you can stream movies in DV that only have HDR10 on disk.
 

two2midnight

Distinguished Member
Amazon has said they will support HDR10+.
Fox (could change after Disney buy out) and Warner has shown support for HDR10+.
However they not said if they are exclusive HDR10+ or not.
Im hoping Disney announce DV support which will be a huge hit to HDR10+ as Disney was one of the major reasons Bluray beat HD DVD.
I thought the major reason was Warners stopping HD-DVD. They announced that on Jan 4th 2008.
HD-DVD was dead by March.
High-definition optical disc format war - Wikipedia
 

DELUCAS

Distinguished Member

DELUCAS

Distinguished Member
You sure you didn't mean to reply to nekromantic rather than me...;)

On mobile but yes

Think Disney did not get involved In it ?
 

dazm41

Well-known Member
on all the uhd reviews of films i've read the difference between the too formats are minimal at best with dolby vision just piping hdr10 on some films on others there is no difference. im happy with hdr10
 

DELUCAS

Distinguished Member
on all the uhd reviews of films i've read the difference between the too formats are minimal at best with dolby vision just piping hdr10 on some films on others there is no difference. im happy with hdr10

With HDR10 + on the way hearing it will out perform Dolby Vision .
 

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