Dolby Vision, including HDR10 conversion w/ DTM on Projectors? Yes!

bytehoven

Active Member
I believe the ATV can force DV - if you deselect 'Match Dynamic Range' and have it set to output DV it will convert everything to that, including HDR10 images. Whether it's employing some kind of Dynamic Tone Mapping in the conversion I don't know.
These are settings on the ATV?
 

TimC

Active Member
Things to check...

- what firmware is on your vertex? The latest is 1.37.x.x

- choose the Sony A1 LLDV V2 EDID for both ports.

- check you HDMI cable. If you can switch FULL no DV and you get a signal, your HDMI cable be the problem.

- where are getting USB power? I had issues with pulling USB power from a Dell Inperion 1525, which might have a USB voltage below what is needed.

- what do you get as an image? Snow?

- which ATV do you have?
Hi. Will have another look but did manage to get a DV picture when using an Oppo 203. The image from the ATV was a blank screen or blue screen.
the ATV is a 5th gen 4K version and the vertex firmware is up to date. Will check the hdmi cable from the ATV as this may the the issue and I did not check it last night.
 

Jim_E

Active Member
These are settings on the ATV?
Yes, in the Audio and Video menu you have the ability to choose what you want to output as a default (so Dolby Vision - at 24fps for me - for these purposes). You can then set whether you want to display the native frame rate and native dynamic range of content instead of that default.

So, if I select 'Match Dynamic Range' then the ATV outputs HDR for HDR content (i.e. Die Hard or Predator from iTunes) and DV for DV content (i.e. Blade Runner 2049 from iTunes). If I deselect the 'Match Dynamic Range' option it forces the default - or DV, which is what the HD Fury then shows, for everything.
 

Jim_E

Active Member
Hi. Will have another look but did manage to get a DV picture when using an Oppo 203. The image from the ATV was a blank screen or blue screen.
the ATV is a 5th gen 4K version and the vertex firmware is up to date. Will check the hdmi cable from the ATV as this may the the issue and I did not check it last night.
When I first plugged the HD Fury into the display chain the ATV asked me if I wanted to try Dolby Vision - did you see that message? When I selected this it failed, with the ATV returning to the original settings. I suspect this is my cables, which are really too long for standard HDMI.

I was able to fix it by asking the ATV to output DV at only 24fps (DV options in this menu did not appear before, so must be as a result of the EDID from the Fury). Might be worth a try - especially if the Oppo works, as that is likley to be only outputting 24fps.
 

HarperVision

Active Member
I believe the ATV can force DV - if you deselect 'Match Dynamic Range' and have it set to output DV it will convert everything to that, including HDR10 images...........
Yes you should be able to force all to DV. In fact that’s been one of my main issues with trying it because it converts everything, including SDR into DV, which makes it look really bad.

........Whether it's employing some kind of Dynamic Tone Mapping in the conversion I don't know.
Did you see my prior posts here? I believe it is and the visuals seem to back that up:



Key quote:

HDR10 disc > UHD Blu-ray player: HEVC decoding > 10-bit PQ uncompressed video + CTA HDR10 static metadata >> HDMI 2.0a >> Active HDR TV: ST 2094-10 dynamic metadata created on-the-fly by Active HDR > Dolby Vision display adaptation > display
 
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HarperVision

Active Member
Hi. Will have another look but did manage to get a DV picture when using an Oppo 203. The image from the ATV was a blank screen or blue screen.
the ATV is a 5th gen 4K version and the vertex firmware is up to date. Will check the hdmi cable from the ATV as this may the the issue and I did not check it last night.
Did you make sure to force HDR on the output of the Vertex, by checking the appropriate box in the GUI?
 

bytehoven

Active Member
Ok... ATV4K 64 is hooked up and passing LLDV. Lots of DV content to test drive.

I find it interesting how many movies are listed as Dolby Vision, when those titles on disc are not listed as DV. Can anyone comment if those titles on disc may be DV but not labeled as so? Example, Avengers Endgame.
 

HarperVision

Active Member
I’m watching the Thursday Night Football (American) game on the Fox Sports app in HDR converted to Dolby Vision with my AppleTV 4K through the Vertex to the LK990.........WOW, best I have EVER seen football!!!! 😳
 

Jim_E

Active Member
Looks like I'll be setting the ATV to DV for everything (and switching it off when I watch in SDR). Fascinating that it seems able to map HDR scene by scene.
 

Jim_E

Active Member
Ok... ATV4K 64 is hooked up and passing LLDV. Lots of DV content to test drive.

I find it interesting how many movies are listed as Dolby Vision, when those titles on disc are not listed as DV. Can anyone comment if those titles on disc may be DV but not labeled as so? Example, Avengers Endgame.
This happens quite a lot on the ATV. Given not everything with HDR is listed as DV I assume when it appears it's correct. Recent big films like Endgame were definitely graded in DV as can be seen on the Dolby website:


Not sure why it would have been left off the disc (I can't check as I don't have a DV player, but I don't recall any reviews mentioning anything other than HDR for Endgame), but if you have access to Movies Anywhere or Vudu then the versions on there have it.
 

dinom

Novice Member
I have a JVC X590R. I already have an Apple TV 4K and I’m thinking of getting an Integral2 to try this out.

What would I set the JVC picture mode to to make the colors and brightness look correct with this LLDV input? Sounds like you had to do a bunch of tweaks to your settings. I also own a Spyder5 to do autocal and don’t have much experience with manual calibration.

Will it be difficult for me to get an accurate picture?

Thanks.
 

bytehoven

Active Member
I have a JVC X590R. I already have an Apple TV 4K and I’m thinking of getting an Integral2 to try this out.

What would I set the JVC picture mode to to make the colors and brightness look correct with this LLDV input? Sounds like you had to do a bunch of tweaks to your settings. I also own a Spyder5 to do autocal and don’t have much experience with manual calibration.

Will it be difficult for me to get an accurate picture?

Thanks.
Try this link ... Owners Thread RS640/x990/x9900 + RS540/x790/x7990 it has many links and info for calibrating those JVC projectors. Some stuff does not carry over to the RS440/x590/x5900, but it should get you close. Let me know if you have any questions.
 

dinom

Novice Member
Thanks but I guess I was wondering about specific settings you had to make with this new LLDV input? I see folks in this thread talking about having to lower the color saturation all the way down or else things looked over saturated.

Or with your X990R did you not have to do much of anything compared to your base calibration for HDR?
 

bytehoven

Active Member
Or with your X990R did you not have to do much of anything compared to your base calibration for HDR?
With the x990 I have two options:

Option 1:
I have custom curves made by ChadB (normal and Bright). with either of these curves, the only adjustment I make is to the Master Contrast setting. It is normally set at +2, I can run it to +12 to before I start to see any clipping of highlights. All other settings stay as HDR10, Color Profile (BT2020), Color Temp (6500K, 7500K or High Bright), Master Brightness +2, Color =0, Tint =0.

It’s worth noting, for some movies which have MaxCLL below 1000 nits, (like BR2049) you can push Master Contrast or Picture Tone even further, so it’s not a bad idea to use the white clipping pattern to have a setup which resolves 660 or 668 (500-600 nits). This makes a big difference with a film like BR2049 which is mastered at a 500 nit MaxCLL?

Option 2:
I have also translated those Chad curves as best I can into ST2084 settings on the x990. And they are:

1 - My Favorite – Like ChadB Bright curve
Gamma - ST.2084
Picture Tone = +11 (dial back to restore lost highlights)
Dark Level = +5
Bright Level = -7

2 - Like ChadB Normal Curve
Gamma - ST.2084
Picture Tone = +6
Dark Level = +5
Bright Level = -6

Note these settings are for HDR10. With DV LLDV DTM, like what I noted above with the Chad Curves, I can increase Master Contrast to +12 before clipping white highlights. The alternative to increasing Master Contrast, is increasing the Picture Tone setting. In either case, I recommend using an HDR10 white clipping test pattern to make changes that resolve 712, the bar just below the 1000 nits value on the test pattern.

Again, it’s worth noting, for some movies which have MaxCLL below 1000 nits, (like BR2049) you can push Master Contrast or Picture Tone even further, so it’s not a bad idea to use the white clipping pattern to have a setup which resolves 660 or 668 (500-600 nits). This makes a big difference with a film like BR2049 which is mastered at a 500 nit MaxCLL?

Regarding Color… I used a blue filter with the HDR10 SMPTE color bark and Color (saturation) = 0 was correct. Although I’m told the blue filter test can no longer be trusted. That said, Color = 0 still looks right to me.

I’ll check what switching out the BT2020 filter does. I assume the more narrow color gamut is going to look like dialing back saturation quite a bit.
 

cjake

Standard Member
Ok... ATV4K 64 is hooked up and passing LLDV. Lots of DV content to test drive.

I find it interesting how many movies are listed as Dolby Vision, when those titles on disc are not listed as DV. Can anyone comment if those titles on disc may be DV but not labeled as so? Example, Avengers Endgame.
No they are not.

When the HLS stream is authored and encoded to HEVC with Dolby Vision Profile 5 for Apple TV, the Dolby Vision scene by scene metadata is either created by the authoring software or entered manually by the technician using the software. There is no such metadata present on HDR10 only discs.

Apple seems to prefer that content is provided to them in Dolby Vision. Just like almost all of their Netflix HDR content is encoded as Dolby Vision and converted to HDR10 for displays that don't support Dolby Vision.
 
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HarperVision

Active Member
Originally posted by bytehoven on AVS:
The DV LLDV hack is limited to source devices that support LLDV, which I listed as I understand them to be. Since the ub9000 can not be forced to do LLDV, hang tight.
I don’t believe this is entirely true. On UHD Dolby Vision capable players that do not have the capability to force Dolby Vision processing on the output like the Sony and Oppo do, then those will still be able to send out a native player led Dolby Vision signal (LLDV) source to the vertex, as long as they’ve received the proper firmware updates to do so. The only difference is that on the players that you can force Dolby Vision processing then you can also convert HDR10 sources to Dolby Vision as well.

So you can still add native DolbyVision support to a projector or display that technically doesn’t support it and only supports HDR10. You would just have to continue to use your current HDR10 solution for those sources.

Of course if it were me just starting out with this, I would just at a minimum invest in a Sony X700 which can force DV and will be at amazing Black Friday pricing in the USA. That’s the Sony I have here for testing against the Oppo 203 and it’s simply amazing. NFL football and Venom last night were utterly jaw dropping!!!
 
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MozeyAround

Standard Member
Very excited to try this tonight! Just got a Epson 6050, Sony x700 (already had a Panny 820), and Vertex2.

We've been messing with the Epson 5040 and madvr on our htpc for a year, and while the results have been great, I'm curious how the Dolby HarperVision look will perform on our PJ shootout this weekend.

If anyone has any settings to try on the Epson 6050 and x700 with DV enabled, we would gladly like to test them.
 

bytehoven

Active Member
I don’t believe this is entirely true. On UHD Dolby Vision capable players that do not have the capability to force Dolby Vision processing on the output like the Sony and Oppo do, then those will still be able to send out a native player led Dolby Vision signal (LLDV) source to the vertex, as long as they’ve received the proper firmware updates to do so. The only difference is that on the players that you can force Dolby Vision processing then you can also convert HDR10 sources to Dolby Vision as well.

So you can still add native DolbyVision support to a projector or display that technically doesn’t support it and only supports HDR10. You would just have to continue to use your current HDR10 solution for those sources.

Of course if it were me just starting out with this, I would just at a minimum invest in a Sony X700 which can force DV and will be at amazing Black Friday pricing in the USA. That’s the Sony I have here for testing against the Oppo 203 and it’s simply amazing. NFL football and Venom last night were utterly jaw dropping!!!
I will test this with the ub820 to see what I can get happening.
 

jfinnie

Distinguished Member
This Vendor specific Video Data CEA Timing Extension in the EDID is I'm almost certain where all the Dolby Vision capabilities are stored (0x00D046 is Dolby's IEEE OUI). Understanding the makeup of this extension might open up interesting experimentation possibilities, perhaps allowing the display peak nits being targeted by LLDV to be edited. Does anyone have a good collection of all available LLDV EDIDs? By comparing the content of this block across different displays we may be able to glean useful information, or at least be able to target certain bits / bytes for experimentation.
Screenshot 2019-11-08 at 21.55.39.png


Edit: this post on another forum explains:
Dolby indicates:
The Dolby Vision display (i.e. HDMI sink) in the Dolby Vision Vendor Specific Video Data Block (VSVDB) CEA Extension version 3 HDMI E-EDID indicates:
  • that it supports Dolby Vision content,
  • 12 bit RGB primes,
  • white point (therefore, on LG, some of the white balance settings are not editable)
  • display brightness
There is obviously a doc somewhere that describes how the display peak brightness is encoded in this EDID extension. Just need to find it...
 
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bytehoven

Active Member
I got it to work.

Captain Marvel HDR10 title via UB820 showing 12bit HDR.
Screen Shot 2019-11-08 at 4.51.50 PM.jpg


Ready PLayer One DV title via ub820 showing 12bit DV.
Screen Shot 2019-11-08 at 4.51.29 PM.jpg



Now need to compare RP1 x800m2 and ub820 12bit DV output quality for differences.
 

jfinnie

Distinguished Member
Unfortunately all the juicy detail is missing from this patent filing:
[ 0149 ] The Dolby Vision VSVDB also contains the 12 bit primary RGB chromaticities , white points and luminance characteristics of the display .
 

HarperVision

Active Member
This Vendor specific Video Data CEA Timing Extension in the EDID is I'm almost certain where all the Dolby Vision capabilities are stored (0x00D046 is Dolby's IEEE OUI). Understanding the makeup of this extension might open up interesting experimentation possibilities, perhaps allowing the display peak nits being targeted by LLDV to be edited. Does anyone have a good collection of all available LLDV EDIDs? By comparing the content of this block across different displays we may be able to glean useful information, or at least be able to target certain bits / bytes for experimentation.
View attachment 1217190

Edit: this post on another forum explains:


There is obviously a doc somewhere that describes how the display peak brightness is encoded in this EDID extension. Just need to find it...
Great stuff and way above my pay grade! Keep digging so we can improve this amazing affordable solution even more!
 

HarperVision

Active Member
I got it to work.

Captain Marvel HDR10 title via UB820 showing 12bit HDR.
View attachment 1217198

Ready PLayer One DV title via ub820 showing 12bit DV.
View attachment 1217199


Now need to compare RP1 x800m2 and ub820 12bit DV output quality for differences.
Yep that’s how I recall it being when I first experimented with this solution on my UB820. After that success I got the bright idea to try it using my “cheap” x700 I had in the living room since I was reading owners complaining (which now after this I don’t know why, since it’s a Godsend in reality and I’m sure a reason why Sony did it this way!!! It’s their version of dynamic HDR10 tone mapping! This should be shared in the Sony UHD Player threads) about having to force DolbyVision. So I thought to myself.....”Self, I wonder if I can use this to force HDR10 sources into DolbyVision for projectors that don’t do that natively, with the benefit of DV’s Dynamic Tone mapping”? So I tried it and it worked.......astonishingly well!!! :)

You’re not saying the top image of Capt. Marvel is being converted to DV, are you? Because that’s just normal HDR10 according the to the Vertex Display. You’re just putting them there as proof and comparison to what I was saying, right? (Top being HDR10 native and bottom being DV native?)
 

jfinnie

Distinguished Member
Great stuff and way above my pay grade! Keep digging so we can improve this amazing affordable solution even more!
Do you have a collection of EDIDs? Can you export all the LLDV capable EDIDs that are present in the Vertex? (I don't have one currently). Ideally some LLDV EDIDs from displays with known different peak nits that might have more chance of having the relevant bits twiddled.

I note that the Vertex UI appears to be able to decode this information for displays connected to the BOT connector. That probably means HDFury know how to decode this EDID block and have seen the sacred information at some point. Perhaps they could provide a function to reverse this - and create a custom EDID with a specific peak brightness.


Screenshot 2019-11-08 at 22.43.24.png
 

bytehoven

Active Member
You’re not saying the top image of Capt. Marvel is being converted to DV, are you? Because that’s just normal HDR10 according the to the Vertex Display. You’re just putting them there as proof and comparison to what I was saying, right? (Top being HDR10 native and bottom being DV native?)
No, captain marvel is coming out hdr10 (12bit hdr). Yes, proof, the ub820 cannot convert hdr10 to dv LLDV hdr pq10, like those devices that can, but can output DV titles (12bit DV).
:)
Oh yeah.. why 12bit hdr and not 10bit hdr?

I shared it in the x800m2 thread. Will do others.
 

bytehoven

Active Member
Results are in...

The x800m2 does a better job with DV LLD DTM on a DV title than the ub820.

Test was Ready Player One. The advantage was the x800m2 preserved more specular highlights, while maintaining similar peak white lumens, which at the same settings on the x990, the ub820 was crushing highlights in a way that even lowering the x990 master contrast could not resolve.

Reds were also a tad more saturated on the ub820.

I used Chads curve for both playbacks.

Not sure why the ub820 would be treating the upper luminance range differently, except that maybe its not as well tuned a LLDV mode as the Sony, which is designed to do so.

Sorry to have a sad report, but it does simplify the question regarding DV mastered titles playback.
 

HarperVision

Active Member
Do you have a collection of EDIDs? Can you export all the LLDV capable EDIDs that are present in the Vertex? (I don't have one currently). Ideally some LLDV EDIDs from displays with known different peak nits that might have more chance of having the relevant bits twiddled.

I note that the Vertex UI appears to be able to decode this information for displays connected to the BOT connector. That probably means HDFury know how to decode this EDID block and have seen the sacred information at some point. Perhaps they could provide a function to reverse this - and create a custom EDID with a specific peak brightness.


View attachment 1217207
I have the EDIDs file downloaded from the HDFURY site but I should be able to export the EDIDs from the Vertex. I think the A1 is the only one natively in it though. You can add them through the file I mentioned. Can you get them from there if needed?
 

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