Dolby Vision, including HDR10 conversion w/ DTM on Projectors? Yes!

I agree that Dolby Vision is Dynamic Tone Mapping, at least that's how I understand it's definition.
Now, what do we call the "real time" analysis which the newest generation JVC projectors does (frame-adapt) ? MadVR and Lumagen does something similar, ignoring metadata completely.
But in my opinion, having (correct) scene by scene metadata must be better and less prone to mistakes.

Just my 2 cents 😊
 
Hi,can I still use harpervision on my Epson 9300 with this hack or would I have to change the dynamic range in the projector to HDR
 
I agree that Dolby Vision is Dynamic Tone Mapping, at least that's how I understand it's definition.
Now, what do we call the "real time" analysis which the newest generation JVC projectors does (frame-adapt) ? MadVR and Lumagen does something similar, ignoring metadata completely.
But in my opinion, having (correct) scene by scene metadata must be better and less prone to mistakes.

Just my 2 cents 😊

It is still considered Dynamic Tone Mapping because it is dynamically changing its tone mapping based on the attributes of each scene and/or frame, metadata or not.

Also, many people mistakenly think Dolby Vision is only scene by scene. This is not the case. If you read a bunch of the DV literature and white papers, you will see mention of frame by frame numerous times. I believe it is based on who masters the project and what they decide to use as far as metadata creation.

Hi,can I still use harpervision on my Epson 9300 with this hack or would I have to change the dynamic range in the projector to HDR

I have not tried this since it has been quite awhile since I have had an Epson projector using my original HarperVision techniques.

Knowing what I know about both processes though, I think it is best to use the HDR mode on your Epson if you're going to use this LLDV tweak on it. My original HarperVision I created for the Epson 5040UB/9300 was to fix a known issue for the time, that being a too dull, dark and lifeless image when HDR was first introduced, especially on projectors. Since the advent of custom curves, dynamic tone mapping and the prevalence of Dolby Vision now, the original settings are no longer the best option in my opinion.

I would try both though and choose which you prefer.

Oh thank God, we finally got a name for this procedure. I like it, lets keep it.

I have been using the "HarperVision" name for my custom video mods, tweaks and procedures for quite awhile now. Back in about 2016 if I recall, I used that moniker to describe a procedure I initially used on the Epson 5040UB/9300 to rectify the dark HDR imaging which was seen when using the standard HDR mode on these and other projectors. See my description above to jordanfff.

I then further created similar settings for projectors like the Epson LS10000, which didn't accept a native HDR video input but it did use laser phosphor with a DCI-P3 color filter, so it made this projector able to accept and display HDR amazingly well, when also combined with an HDFury device, similar to what we do here now.

If I hadn't figured these things out in the first place, I don't think I ever would have discovered this new LLDV mod, so we need to give credit to this prior work for what we have now with this new version of "HarperVision LLDV"! :)
 
It is still considered Dynamic Tone Mapping because it is dynamically changing its tone mapping based on the attributes of each scene and/or frame, metadata or not.

Also, many people mistakenly think Dolby Vision is only scene by scene. This is not the case. If you read a bunch of the DV literature and white papers, you will see mention of frame by frame numerous times. I believe it is based on who masters the project and what they decide to use as far as metadata creation.



I have not tried this since it has been quite awhile since I have had an Epson projector using my original HarperVision techniques.

Knowing what I know about both processes though, I think it is best to use the HDR mode on your Epson if you're going to use this LLDV tweak on it. My original HarperVision I created for the Epson 5040UB/9300 was to fix a known issue for the time, that being a too dull, dark and lifeless image when HDR was first introduced, especially on projectors. Since the advent of custom curves, dynamic tone mapping and the prevalence of Dolby Vision now, the original settings are no longer the best option in my opinion.

I would try both though and choose which you prefer.



I have been using the "HarperVision" name for my custom video mods, tweaks and procedures for quite awhile now. Back in about 2016 if I recall, I used that moniker to describe a procedure I initially used on the Epson 5040UB/9300 to rectify the dark HDR imaging which was seen when using the standard HDR mode on these and other projectors. See my description above to jordanfff.

I then further created similar settings for projectors like the Epson LS10000, which didn't accept a native HDR video input but it did use laser phosphor with a DCI-P3 color filter, so it made this projector able to accept and display HDR amazingly well, when also combined with an HDFury device, similar to what we do here now.

If I hadn't figured these things out in the first place, I don't think I ever would have discovered this new LLDV mod, so we need to give credit to this prior work for what we have now with this new version of "HarperVision LLDV"! :)
Thanks Dave, I've got the vertex coming soon ,hopefully it won't be to difficult to setup,looking forward to this.Thank you for sharing all this AV stuff over the last few years .It's been a great help
 
My projector is at Benq getting a new laser, who knew 20000 hours would go so quickly lol, anyway, I have a flat panel with dolby vision and hdr10 up in its place, is there anything I can play with with the HDFury to see how setting of maxcll and other variables change image. It's a rare opportunity that wont last long.

Edit..Projector repaired, COLOR WHEEL replaced, Intransit on FEDEX.
 
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My projector is at Benq getting a new laser, who knew 20000 hours would go so quickly lol, anyway, I have a flat panel with dolby vision and hdr10 up in its place, is there anything I can play with with the HDFury to see how setting of maxcll and other variables change image. It's a rare opportunity that wont last long.

Edit..Projector repaired, COLOR WHEEL replaced, Intransit on FEDEX.

I don't think you will see the same results on a flat panel that you would on a projector, and vice versa.

Glad to hear it was the color wheel instead of the lasers. I would have told them to replace it with a DCI-P3 color wheel, haha! ;)
 
Maybe they did. 🤔

I highly doubt that. They would have to redo so many things to account for the RGBRGB wheel instead of the RG"BY" color/phosphor wheels, the blue and yellow is in quotes because those aren't actual colors on the wheel. They are clear segments on the color wheel where the blue is derived directly from the blue lasers, through another clear filtered segment on the phosphor wheel, which also has yellow phosphor segments which when excited by the blue lasers, creates the primary yellow color. So the B and Y are derived from the lasers and phophor wheel directly, sequentially shown through the clear segments on the color wheel, then the R and G are color filters on the color wheel, in addition to the two clear segments. So the color wheel only has Red, Clear (Blue Laser), Green, Clear (Yellow Phosphor) segments on it, so you can see the issues it may cause switching it to an RGBRGB wheel.
 
I highly doubt that. They would have to redo so many things to account for the RGBRGB wheel instead of the RG"BY" color/phosphor wheels, the blue and yellow is in quotes because those aren't actual colors on the wheel. They are clear segments on the color wheel where the blue is derived directly from the blue lasers, through another clear filtered segment on the phosphor wheel, which also has yellow phosphor segments which when excited by the blue lasers, creates the primary yellow color. So the B and Y are derived from the lasers and phophor wheel directly, sequentially shown through the clear segments on the color wheel, then the R and G are color filters on the color wheel, in addition to the two clear segments. So the color wheel only has Red, Clear (Blue Laser), Green, Clear (Yellow Phosphor) segments on it, so you can see the issues it may cause switching it to an RGBRGB wheel.

😥 bummer.
 
tnaik4 said:
today i added a Panamorph uv200 lens to my jv rs440 and it actually made a very visible difference.

i got it for cheap just to try what an anamorphic lens can do to the image.

it bumped my brightness from 65nits to 90nits! which is a big jump, but the biggest difference was that the image felt more dense/thicker i m not sure how to explain it but visibly better, it adds a little of pin cushion to the sides but nothing distracting and can be improved if i play more with the position of the lens.

i thought if anyone is having a brightness issue with the old dlps that might be helpful.

i m really surprised and didnt expect such an improvement.

@Tnaik4,

I see you talking about other, older DLPs in the other threads. I know you have/had a BenQ LK970 and liked it for what it was. I can’t stress enough that if you liked the LK970 and now seem to like those older SDR 1080p DLPs, neither of which support HDR, that you should seriously be also looking into the upgraded and HDR capable LK990! It is much further ahead in terms of image quality, black levels, shadow detail, etc. and is able to use this new 10,000 nit Max luminance DV Data Block LLDV setting, which takes this projector to an entirely new level!

I don’t want to clog up this thread with specific projector talk, so feel free to PM or email me if you have any questions. I think you have my email from prior conversations. If not send PM and I’ll share it.
 
@Tnaik4,

I see you talking about other, older DLPs in the other threads. I know you have/had a BenQ LK970 and liked it for what it was. I can’t stress enough that if you liked the LK970 and now seem to like those older SDR 1080p DLPs, neither of which support HDR, that you should seriously be also looking into the upgraded and HDR capable LK990! It is much further ahead in terms of image quality, black levels, shadow detail, etc. and is able to use this new 10,000 nit Max luminance DV Data Block LLDV setting, which takes this projector to an entirely new level!

I don’t want to clog up this thread with specific projector talk, so feel free to PM or email me if you have any questions. I think you have my email from prior conversations. If not send PM and I’ll share it.
hello Dave, hope you are good and safe.

yes i m getting a Sim2 M150 very soon and cant wait to check it out specially the colors since it an cover close to 85-90% bt2020 , i like my LK970 for what it can do but i always keep thinking how better it can be if it had a dynamic iris or a smarteco function.
U know ive been a MadVR user for some time now and been using the latest DTM but i m not sure what is the 10,000 nit Max luminance DV Data Block LLDV setting.
 
hello Dave, hope you are good and safe.

yes i m getting a Sim2 M150 very soon and cant wait to check it out specially the colors since it an cover close to 85-90% bt2020 , i like my LK970 for what it can do but i always keep thinking how better it can be if it had a dynamic iris or a smarteco function.
U know ive been a MadVR user for some time now and been using the latest DTM but i m not sure what is the 10,000 nit Max luminance DV Data Block LLDV setting.

Yes I am doing as well as can be expected, given the world situation and my health issues. How are you and your loved ones, fine sir?

That sounds exciting about the color gamut coverage for sure! Since the LK990 adds SmartEco, on top of the Automatic Power Control that both the LK970 and LK990 share, this gives an amazing effect with the low level detail and appearance of low ADL content, similar to what an auto iris would give. This is a great upgrade from the LK970.

The 10,000 nit "Max Luminance (nits)" setting is in the DV tab on the HDFury Vertex2/DIVA/Maestro units, used for creating a custom DV Data Block to be sent to the HDF device you have. This basically tells the source what parameters your DV capable display has so that it tailors it to that particular display characteristic for it's metadata/DTM processing, which in the case of LLDV happens in the source device. I know this sounds counter intuitive to use 10,000 nits when you consider tone mapping, etc. for HDR, but for some reason it works and works REALLY WELL, at least on the LK990 anyway!

I have discovered that when you use 10,000 nits as max, .0005 nits min luminance and BT2020 color gamut settings on the HDF Vertex2 along with a HDR Brightness (tone curve) of -2, Color at ~7-10, Color Enhancer ~16 settings on the LK990, it results in a startling image with LLDV on ALL sources, whether native DV, HDR10 or SDR. You should be able to find more detailed info here in this thread from when I first posted about it. I would do a search for "Max Luminance (nits) 10,000" and it should come up.

Like I said, also feel free to PM or email me for more info too. I just got an i1Pro2 Spectro so should be able to fine tune this soon as well.
 
Hi, I am in the process of buying an HDFURY VERTEX 2, I have been using for some time, with my OPTOMA UHZ65 laser, Madvr-Displaycal with great satisfaction..... in addition to an htpc I also own an OPPO 203 that I would like to use with the Vertex 2, this discussion has put me a lot of curiosity and I would also like to make comparisons... before I wanted to ask a few things:

1. how can I have the menu screen (VERTEX UTILITY and VERTEX ACTIVE INPUT)on the pc (os WINDOWS 10) with wi-fi?

2. In VERTEX ACTIVE INPUT I understand how to configure EDID, DV and HDR/AVI, but should the other entries be left by default? For example, is SCALER better to use the VERTEX or OPPO 203?

Thanks
 
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Hi, I am in the process of buying an HDFURY VERTEX 2, I have been using for some time, with my OPTOMA UHZ65 laser, Madvr-Displaycal with great satisfaction..... in addition to an htpc I also own an OPPO 203 that I would like to use with the Vertex 2, this discussion has put me a lot of curiosity and I would also like to make comparisons... before I wanted to ask a few things:

1. how can I have the menu screen (VERTEX UTILITY and VERTEX ACTIVE INPUT)on the pc (os WINDOWS 10) with wi-fi?

2. In VERTEX ACTIVE INPUT I understand how to configure EDID, DV and HDR/AVI, but should the other entries be left by default? For example, is SCALER better to use the VERTEX or OPPO 203?

Thanks

1. As long as your PC is on the same network, then you just type Vertex2 URL in any browser to access its webserver, the fact that it is wired or wireless does not change anything to that.

2. Scaling won't do anything if not needed, so it is fully transparent with default settings.
 
I wanted to know on the DV screen:
1. in BACKLIGHT MINIUM the value to set is 100 nits?
2. in GLOBAL DIMMING I have to put SUPPORTED being my a laser projector?
3. in DV INTERFACE it is better to put LOW LATENCY 12BIT YCbCr 4:2:2 or LOW LATENCY 12BIT YCbCr 4:2:2 AND RGB YCbCr 4:4:4 10/12BIT, what is the difference?
 
I have read through some of the thread but not all of it yet so have I got this right,if I get a vertex or one of the other ones I can get anything in HDR to play in Dolby vision? I have a Dolby vision TV already but to be able to play any HDR film or TV show in DV would be incredible
 
I have read through some of the thread but not all of it yet so have I got this right,if I get a vertex or one of the other ones I can get anything in HDR to play in Dolby vision? I have a Dolby vision TV already but to be able to play any HDR film or TV show in DV would be incredible

I have been using the Vertex2 for this purpose and it work really well. There is some confusion on this topic. Here is my understanding that could be incomplete. The so-called LLDV "trick" does not create DV content. What it does is tone map material content through (LL)DV processing to a display device that can handle HDR10. So for this to work you have to have a display device (TV, projector, etc...) that can handle HDR10, a source device (Apple TV 4K, some sony 4K players such as X800M2) that can perform LLDV processing, and a HDFury device (such as the Vertex2) that can trick the the source device that the display device can handle LLDV. What happens then is that the source device performs the LLDV processing itself and send the toned map image to the display device. This works not only for HDR material but for non-HDR material also.

In your case, since you already have a TV that can handle DV it could potentially handle LLDV also. I do not know if you need a HDFury device for that to happen. To test if this works on your TV without an HDFury you would use an Apple TV 4K and set it to display DV and not to match Dynamic Range. Or if you have a sony player that can handle LLDV processing such as X700, X800M2, or X1100ES you could try it by setting the option to force DV. If your TV reports that is receiving DV material content from a non-DV material content then no need for the HDFury, if it does not then you would need one.
 
I have been using the Vertex2 for this purpose and it work really well. There is some confusion on this topic. Here is my understanding that could be incomplete. The so-called LLDV "trick" does not create DV content. What it does is tone map material content through (LL)DV processing to a display device that can handle HDR10. So for this to work you have to have a display device (TV, projector, etc...) that can handle HDR10, a source device (Apple TV 4K, some sony 4K players such as X800M2) that can perform LLDV processing, and a HDFury device (such as the Vertex2) that can trick the the source device that the display device can handle LLDV. What happens then is that the source device performs the LLDV processing itself and send the toned map image to the display device. This works not only for HDR material but for non-HDR material also.

In your case, since you already have a TV that can handle DV it could potentially handle LLDV also. I do not know if you need a HDFury device for that to happen. To test if this works on your TV without an HDFury you would use an Apple TV 4K and set it to display DV and not to match Dynamic Range. Or if you have a sony player that can handle LLDV processing such as X700, X800M2, or X1100ES you could try it by setting the option to force DV. If your TV reports that is receiving DV material content from a non-DV material content then no need for the HDFury, if it does not then you would need one.
Thanks for explaining,I don't have a Apple TV or any of the others just the 2019 Nvidia shield pro,would it work on that with the vertex? I would be buying the vertex 1 as the vertex 2 is quite expensive
 
Thanks for explaining,I don't have a Apple TV or any of the others just the 2019 Nvidia shield pro,would it work on that with the vertex? I would be buying the vertex 1 as the vertex 2 is quite expensive

I have read that the 2019 Nvidia Shield also can do LLDV but since I do not have I do not know if it works or not. I also have read that the Vertex 1 would also work but it would not be as straight forward as the Vertex 2. Hopefully folks on this thread that have both the 2019 Nvidia Shield and the Vertex 1 can help on if it works and how to configure it to work.
 
Thanks for explaining,I don't have a Apple TV or any of the others just the 2019 Nvidia shield pro,would it work on that with the vertex? I would be buying the vertex 1 as the vertex 2 is quite expensive
Shield Pro 2019 can output LLDV for DV content, no problem for that.

On any other device than latest generation (Maestro/Diva/Vertex2) you will need to manually start HDR metadata injection when you start LLDV playback and manually stop it once you are done. So it is a serious restriction but it won't prevent you from testing and making your opinion.

Only the latest generation can do all that automatic so you don't have to worry about doing anything and just enjoy your setup.

I posted a very quick and easy method on previous page: Dolby Vision, including HDR10 conversion w/ DTM on Projectors? Yes!
 
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A nice review of Topgun 4K uhd disc here. The reviewer also uses the vertex LLDV hack vs watching it on a New JVC with tone mapping.

This is what he says

One may be wondering how I was able to test the Dolby Vision encode on the disc with a projection setup? When using a HDFury Vertex and Panasonic UB-820 UHD Blu-ray player, you can "trick" the Panasonic into decoding the Dolby Vision version internally and outputting the video to any display that accepts a 4K HDR signal. There are some technical hoops to jump through here, but the results are visually pleasing and, in some cases, produces a more consistent picture versus the dynamic tone mapping built into the projector. Once set up, it's more plug-and-play versus determining which of the JVC's internal tone mapping settings to use (Auto, Low, Medium, or High).

 

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