Dolby Vision, including HDR10 conversion w/ DTM on Projectors? Yes!

[HarperVision]

The wait is over!!! I know everyone has wondered and asked and there have also been many questions as to whether we could get Dolby Vision on our home theater projectors. Which amazingly also gives an awesome side benefit......... DTM (Dynamic Tone Mapping) by auto converting your SDR HDTV and HDR10 UHD HDR Blu-Ray collections!!! All this, without having to pay thousands of dollars/pounds on the likes of a Lumagen Radiance Pro or MadVR PC or Envy, nor the setup and tweaking hassles. This also means that you DO NOT have to have a newer JVC 4K LCoS with it's latest FW with DTM, nor wait for your specific brand to offer it as an "upgrade". You can enjoy this no matter the brand of projector you have right now, be it Sony, Epson, Optoma, BenQ, Vivitek or even an older JVC eShift and also the vaunted RS4500/Z1!!!

How do we do this, you ask?

1. Acquire and install an HDFury Vertex (or similar I would guess, i.e. - Vertex 2, Integral 2, Maestro, Diva, etc.) and use the "Sony A1" EDID in the Custom EDID List or use Automix with the LLDV (and even HDR10+!) option enabled . Force HDR10 on the output by checking the "Force HDR" box on Vertex1 or the various LLDV options as desired on the Vertex2/Integral2/Maestro/Diva (to make your projector go into its HDR PQ mode) and set then send the LLDV custom string metadata to whatever luminance parameters your display works best.

2. Use a Sony (X700, X800M2, X1100ES) or Oppo (UDP-203 or 205) UHD Blu-ray player, which can each force Dolby Vision output, and activate this mode. If using the Oppo, also force Dolby Vision "Player Led" mode.

This should result in some amazing images where you can clearly see the DTM working when you compare it to your older, static HDR metadata images. Custom curves and expensive DTM solutions should be a thing of the past now! Of course you should do at least a basic calibration (black and white clipping, color, etc.), but it will be surprisingly close to what you already have for HDR10 Static. At least it is on my amazing BenQ LK990.

Play all your favorite discs and shows, be they SDR HDTV, HDR10 or Dolby Vision, and you will easily see the improvement! Your UHD BR player will confirm that you are getting the Dolby Vision mastering on the input and output when playing a DV disc, and DV at the output when playing an HDR10 disc, showing it's being converted to DV with DTM. (Do a long press on the "i" button on the Oppo remote or the “Display” button on your Sony renoteto verify this).

I was able to immediately see the results with DV movies like Mortal Engines, Star Wars Last Jedi and Solo, Rocketman, The Meg, Aquaman, Justice League, Fantastic Beasts: Grindelwald, Black Panther, etc. and the best part, DTM with HDR10 discs like Blade Runner 2049, The Revenant, Guardians of the Galaxy 2, Lucy, et. al.

I will try to post some menu pictures for ease of setup if/when I can. Feel free to fire away any questions and post your thoughts and opinions if you try this. I think this is a game changer and HUGE money saver to boot. Enjoy!!!

***Edited and updated on 1/19/2020 to account for new information since original post. I will try to do this as often as I can, but feel free to prompt me when you feel it needs updating and I miss it.

 

[Thatsnotmynaim]

Sounds VERY interesting indeed. So does this have to be disc based or is there a way to get it to work on things like Netflix, Amazon and local libraries of full ripped UHDs using Kodi or Plex?!?

 

[HarperVision]

Sounds VERY interesting indeed. So does this have to be disc based or is there a way to get it to work on things like Netflix, Amazon and local libraries of full ripped UHDs using Kodi or Plex?!?

It works with other sources besides discs. I’ve tested it with the built in Netflix app on a Sony X700 and also with an AppleTV 4K on the HDMI In Bypass of the Oppo. Both provided the DV file.

It basically acts just as if your display fully supports Dolby Vision. This is due to the custom DV EDID on the Vertex.

 

[Thatsnotmynaim]

I have a Vertex and an Apple TV 4K and an nVidia Shield so would be interested to try this, but presume I must need to buy an Oppo ££££ or a Sony DVD player, but not sure their apps are perfect for Netflix like the Apple one is. So presume there’s no way to plug Apple or NVidia direct to the Vertex?

 

[lexicon]

Would this work with your old fave Epson 9300W and a Pioneer LX500 Dave?

 

[bytehoven]

Hi Dave... very interesting! I currently lack both the HDFury product and the Oppo or Sony player. But I am very curious to keep reading reports on this possible alternative.



Byte

 

[HarperVision]

Would this work with your old fave Epson 9300W and a Pioneer LX500 Dave?

If there’s a way to force DV on the LX500 it should work, but just know if it can’t force it then you’ll only have the ability to play DV discs as DV (which is still pretty cool, considering nobody thought you could play DV on home projectors!) . You won’t get the ability to convert HDR10 to DV.

 

[HarperVision]

Hi Dave... very interesting! I currently lack both the HDFury product and the Oppo or Sony player. But I am very curious to keep reading reports on this possible alternative.



Byte

If you currently lack a DTM solution then I’d say the advantages and upgrade are WELL worth the cost of at least a cheaper Sony X700 and a Vertex!

 

[HarperVision]

I saw this question elsewhere:

How does one get around the issue with Oppo 203/205 where BT2020 color space is reduced to Rec709?

You’re not doing any HDR to SDR tone mapping (which I absolutely HATE!) with this, so it’s a moot issue.

 

[bytehoven]

If you currently lack a DTM solution then I’d say the advantages and upgrade are WELL worth the cost of at least a cheaper Sony X700 and a Vertex!

Thanks Dave...

working on both pieces. may have use of a friends 203.

Use would be with the JVC DLA-X990 (rs640/x9900).

 

[HarperVision]

Thanks Dave...

working on both pieces. may have use of a friends 203.

Use would be with the JVC DLA-X990 (rs640/x9900).

Cool. I’d love to hear how it works on the JVC.

One thing I forgot to mention in the original post is for someone to check the color saturation on a different projector. My LK990 required some playing with to get correct (possibly oversaturated), but I wasn’t sure if that is due to the BenQ Brilliant Color, Color Enhancement or the conversion itself. Also you’ll most likely have to adjust contrast and brightness some, using a test pattern to get just right. The Horses in the snow scene on the S&M HDR Disc look correct once completed, to me indicating the DTM is working. Maybe you can report back on this and your findings?

 

[bytehoven]

Cool. I’d love to hear how it works on the JVC.

One thing I forgot to mention in the original post is for someone to check the color saturation on a different projector. My LK990 required some playing with to get correct (possibly oversaturated), but I wasn’t sure if that is due to the BenQ Brilliant Color, Color Enhancement or the conversion itself. Also you’ll most likely have to adjust contrast and brightness some, using a test pattern to get just right. The Horses in the snow scene on the S&M HDR Disc look correct once completed, to me indicating the DTM is working. Maybe you can report back on this and your findings?

Once I have all of the pieces, I still have your email, so maybe I can reach out to walk thru the steps and cover all of the bases. Then we can work thru the final report I could file for your thread here.

 

[HarperVision]

How do you get a DV signal to a projector that can't accept a DV signal? I assume DH is trying to use an HD Fury product to change the EDID info? A projector does not know what to do with DV metadata.

Added You care to send me an email with a link to the thread discussing this?

Unfortunately DH is not here to explain the process.

But it sounds like the player does all of the heavy lifting, once it thinks it's sending output to a DV enabled display.

I assume I'd just set up my projector with my best ChadB HDR full range curve, and the DV signal would fall into that box. Maybe some tweaking to accommodate the DV signal range, but won't know for sure until I test drive.

I have no expectation of what the results might be, but why not give it a try.

Would be happy to move to a new thread if there are objections to continuing here?

Yes you’re correct Byte.

 

[HarperVision]

Once I have all of the pieces, I still have your email, so maybe I can reach out to walk thru the steps and cover all of the bases. Then we can work thru the final report I could file for your thread here.

Yes that sounds good. I forgot you’re the one that swapped the Oppo and 820 with me, haha!

 

[HarperVision]

The part that does not make sense is if the display does not accept Dolby Vision, then the display will not recognize the Dolby Vision dynamic metadata.

As you alluded to earlier to this poster, the player is doing all the DV processing, including DTM. It’s just sending DV/DTM in a “Static PQ Container” so to speak.

 

[bytehoven]

As you alluded to earlier to this poster, the player is doing all the DV processing, including DTM. It’s just sending DV/DTM in a “Static PQ Container” so to speak.

I am curious what methods are available for fine tuning how DV/DTM is adjusted for the static PQ container. I cautiously assume DV has it's own standards based on the designated NIT range of the display.

 

[HarperVision]

I am curious what methods are available for fine tuning how DV/DTM is adjusted for the static PQ container. I cautiously assume DV has it's own standards based on the designated NIT range of the display.

Yes I think you’re right. I was shocked at how easy it was to get an amazing image once I stumbled on this DV revelation.

 

[bytehoven]

Yes I think you’re right. I was shocked at how easy it was to get an amazing image once I stumbled on this DV revelation.

Can the Vertex designate a lower nit range for the DV processing? You mentioned 1000 nits above. I know from experience with the ub820 optimizer, the 500 nit display luminance option offers a better range for my projector st2084 controls to calibrate up to 10k nits, where as the 1000 nit display luminance setting, brings the headroom down to around 4-6K nits.

 

[HarperVision]

Can the Vertex designate a lower nit range for the DV processing? You mentioned 1000 nits above. I know from experience with the ub820 optimizer, the 500 nit display luminance option offers a better range for my projector st2084 controls to calibrate up to 10k nits, where as the 1000 nit display luminance setting, brings the headroom down to around 4-6K nits.

I’m not exactly sure what all is happening and what the conversion is doing yet at this point, but that stuff seems almost moot, at least in my setup. I went to about 49-52 on brightness and between 43-48 contrast depending on source. I adjust those similar to how I used to adjust the Dynamic Range Slider on my UB820. And the color/saturation control needs tweaked some too. Sorry I’ve gone through so many iterations so far and am not in front of it right now.

 

[HarperVision]

Yes, I was agreeing with you. DV does not offer anything over good DTM of HDR10.

That’s the whole point of this! So you can have DTM with HDR10 sources without having to buy expensive and setup time consuming gear like you would with Lumagen Radiance Pro and MadVR PC or Envy.

But regardless, when playing the DV encoding, it’s even better than the HDR10 to DV conversion!

 

[HarperVision]

@Bytehoven, so how would you know if you are getting DV? Info from the Oppo, by long pressing the info button?

no idea yet, but I definitely have questions too.

As stated in the initial post, yes a long press on the “i” (info) button on the Oppo remote will show you that you’re getting the DV encode on the input and output when it’s a DV source. It will also show HDR10 input and DV output when you’re doing that conversion.

The Sony players also show the DV source when you hit the display (?) button on the bottom right of the x700 remote anyway.

 

[Danonano56]

I'm really interested as I've been waiting for a simple solution for the projector/HDR challenge.

One thing, can you explain how HDR can be converted to DV? Wouldn't that take a frame-by-frame analysis?

 

[bytehoven]

Ok... I'll be testing with the Sony x800m2 -> vertex 4k -> jvc dla-x990. Hope to have everything in hand as early as Monday. Haven't been this excited since test driving an Isco iiiL + CineSlide.

 

[HarperVision]

Craig Peer wrote:

Even if that works for discs / streaming with Dolby Vision, it won’t give you dynamic tone mapping for HDR10 content. Still need a JVC, Lumagen or MadVR for that.

Sure, but even if it works for Dolby Vision, HDR10 on sources that don’t have Dolby Vision isn’t a dynamic tone mapping encoding. You can’t magically turn HDR10 into Dolby Vision. Any more than you can change stereo into Dolby Atmos.

As they say, If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is.

You’re wrong Craig.......again. Please share what and where the experience and knowledge you supposedly have regarding this came from and what exact facts you have to back up your false rhetoric?

All you have to do is read the Oppo 203 thread for the past many months and you can see the many comments on how well this HDR10 to DV conversion works for the folks that have DV capable flat panels. Once you can send player led DV to the display, it’s the same benefit and effect.

I agree with Craig that non-Dolby Vision sources can't be improved out of thin air.

Yet that’s exactly what the new JVC FW, Lumagen RP and MadVR do. So why can’t Sony and Dolby? Nobody, not one person who posted “over there” knows what Sony is doing with DV inside the chip/processing with player led DV. Maybe educate yourselves and actually try it before you make comments and assumptions.

Any 2nd party verification that this works? I hate to say it but the source has a vote of no confidence from me.

And why is that? Do you know me somehow? Is my 30+ years in the industry not good enough for you? What is this “vote of no confidence” based on? The personal attacks by the agenda laden folks on other sites?

 

[HarperVision]

I'm really interested as I've been waiting for a simple solution for the projector/HDR challenge.

One thing, can you explain how HDR can be converted to DV? Wouldn't that take a frame-by-frame analysis?

For all I know that’s what’s happening with the newer Sony Player Led DV. I’m not pretending to know exactly what that is yet, but from personal experience now, I’d say it’s something very similar if not exact DTM, due to the image attributes I see when tried and compared it to my static TM HDR10 from my UB820. It looks extremely similar and just as good as I recall getting from my Radiance Pro with an earlier version of its DTM. I have since sold it though, for financial reasons.