Answered Dolby Atmos upfiring speaker placement...

Very interesting. I am in email conversation with PSB at the moment and they say the XA's are not designed for down firing so they can't advise it. I am waiting for a more detailed answer to my query and will post this when I have it but I suspect they are saying that the narrower bandwidth the speakers produce to allow for the greater distance travelled when up firing will give too narrow a bandwidth when down firing. This may be wrong but I hope they give a detailed answer as I was going to try what you have done. Do you now get definite height effect with Atmos that you did not get when up firing.?
 
I am also emailing Dali to find out what they recommend for Atmos with their Alteco C1's which are designed for down and up firing but have not followed the Dolby certified route.
 
Have you tested the speakers with the pink noise (calibration noise from you avr), no need to disconnect as you will hear the ouptut from each single speaker, i.e have you proven that the sound config selected is correct?
BTW MLP is Main Listening Position

Pink noise output does not alter my perception and I'm not sure what you mean by sound config but, as i said, the settings are for 'Dolby enabled' in the layout section. I was surprised to find, when I switched off the PSB's by setting the front presence speakers to 'none', that the sounds they had been delivering were added to the surround pair so coming from the side rear instead of from the front, Strange but since the PSB's were giving me no height effect, they seem to be redundant. This was realized when playing 'Audiosphere' on the Dolby Atmos demo disc.

How do I the 'fayeanddavid' part in the top of my reply? Using quote is not corrects it seems.
 
How do I the 'fayeanddavid' part in the top of my reply?

Preface his name with @ then follow the exact spelling to be found under the avatar. No space between @ and the name. When you press 'Post Reply' the name will be highlighted in red.
 
Pink noise output does not alter my perception and I'm not sure what you mean by sound config but, as i said, the settings are for 'Dolby enabled' in the layout section. I was surprised to find, when I switched off the PSB's by setting the front presence speakers to 'none', that the sounds they had been delivering were added to the surround pair so coming from the side rear instead of from the front, Strange but since the PSB's were giving me no height effect, they seem to be redundant. This was realized when playing 'Audiosphere' on the Dolby Atmos demo disc.

How do I the 'fayeanddavid' part in the top of my reply? Using quote is not corrects it seems.
So, I am not following you completely, question:
Do you get sound from the PSBs when you run the sound check ? Not bothered about anyhting else than do they work!!
You talk "front presence" speaker, that is not the same as Atmos btw, I just want to be sure that you have output
Lastly, the effect that Atmos brings is "atmospheric" (excuse the obviousness), it is not night and day it is an ambience that can be detected compared to say 5.1
If I listen to crowd noise on the football with Sky 5.1and then Sky UHD with Atmos the difference is that the room fills out especially from the front, hence my questions as Atmos does work but not like a dedicated channel
 
@bert2
They Sound better firing downwards then upfiring with the Atmos demo disc for me so i left them like that .
Try for yourself and see how you get on.

ALLEN
 
Question: instead of moving upfiring Atmos speakers to the top of the front wall, can one use just any speaker as height speakers? i.e. speakers that tonally match the existing setup. I'll thinking they won't be pointing downward however.
 
Question: instead of moving upfiring Atmos speakers to the top of the front wall, can one use just any speaker as height speakers? i.e. speakers that tonally match the existing setup. I'll thinking they won't be pointing downward however.
Any standard speaker can be used in that position. There are plenty of wall brackets that can be used to angle the speaker down.
 
So, I am not following you completely, question:
Do you get sound from the PSBs when you run the sound check ? Not bothered about anyhting else than do they work!!
You talk "front presence" speaker, that is not the same as Atmos btw, I just want to be sure that you have output
Lastly, the effect that Atmos brings is "atmospheric" (excuse the obviousness), it is not night and day it is an ambience that can be detected compared to say 5.1
If I listen to crowd noise on the football with Sky 5.1and then Sky UHD with Atmos the difference is that the room fills out especially from the front, hence my questions as Atmos does work but not like a dedicated channel

I get sound as i would expect from the Atmos up firing speakers set to Dolby enabled. The sound is like a different channel, not just the same as the front pair, but no height. What is advertised is that sound can be heard as coning from the ceiling, a plane overhead for instance and, if there is also a rear pair, the plane can travel overhead from front to rear. This is what I am not getting. If you run the Atmos demo disc it can be heard that the Atmos speakers have a definite sound that is not replicated in the front pair or the surround pair if there is also a pair of Atmos enabled speakers at the rear. Those sounds are then heard in the rear surrounds on the track i am playing, if the Atmos speakers are turned off so, without the height effect I was expecting I get the same sound with or without the Atmos speakers so they are redundant, not needed, have no benefit. The channels are well separated in the demo disc and I do not loose atmospherics when not using the Atmos speakers. Have you tried Sky UHD without Atmos as a comparison if this is possible?
 
I get sound as i would expect from the Atmos up firing speakers set to Dolby enabled. The sound is like a different channel, not just the same as the front pair, but no height. What is advertised is that sound can be heard as coning from the ceiling, a plane overhead for instance and, if there is also a rear pair, the plane can travel overhead from front to rear. This is what I am not getting. If you run the Atmos demo disc it can be heard that the Atmos speakers have a definite sound that is not replicated in the front pair or the surround pair if there is also a pair of Atmos enabled speakers at the rear. Those sounds are then heard in the rear surrounds on the track i am playing, if the Atmos speakers are turned off so, without the height effect I was expecting I get the same sound with or without the Atmos speakers so they are redundant, not needed, have no benefit. The channels are well separated in the demo disc and I do not loose atmospherics when not using the Atmos speakers. Have you tried Sky UHD without Atmos as a comparison if this is possible?
might be expecting too much, it is an experience not a dedicated channel, meta data (as I understand) is available in the mix that can be directed to Atmos speakers, this does not mean that Atmos speakers are permanently receiving information, far from it in fact, also the frequency response tends to be mid to upper register (cross overs are typically 150Hz for Atmos speakers).
If you are experiencing the effect from the demo disk then they work, it does not mean that you will have effects all the time from an Atmos enabled disk
I have my front Atmos at about 2.5 meters centre above my L&R and I sit 3.3 meters away, works OK, its not the bees knees as I do believe you'll need overhead speakers (in ceiling or otherwise), at about a meter or 1.5m in front and behind for the best effect, but thats not going to happen in my world as yet
 
Hi folks. Been thinking about unpgrading to Atmos. Got my birthday coming up and feel like treating myself!

Would just be for my main set up in the lounge. See pic.

Currently I have wall mounted Kef T301’s so unable to place anything on top of these speakers. And don’t fancy adding speakers up near the ceiling.

The room is a fairly uniform rectangle box shape. 4m wide x 5m long. 65’ TV along the 4m wall. The sub is a SVS SB1000.

Therefore my only option is to place up firing speakers as close as possible to the front sound stage. On the left I could place one on top of the set of drawers, which happens to be same height and close the main front speakers. On the right I’m limited to the sideboard which is lower in height but still within a couple of feet from the front speaker.

Whilst an amp might compensate for delay/distance in the sound I’m aware the angles when the sound hits the roof won’t be uniform so may need to tilt the one on the left up a bit at the front.

I’ll be looking for speakers discrete as possible. The Kef Q50a look nice and I assume would match my T301’s sonically, but can’t really justify £430 (as I’ll also be buying a new Atmos amp - probably the Denon x2500h which is now reduced again to £375 - to replace my 6 year old Yamaha 673 which isn’t Atmos).

So Thinking the ELAC A4.2 £250new. Or Ive seen the original ELAC A4 for around £130 second hand on eBay (might also have a look on the classifieds). These are 6ohm and my kefs are 8ohm - is that ok?

So a few questions before I take the plunge.

1. Is there much difference between the original ELAC A4 and the A4.2? Is £130 the better deal for my set up? Am I really going to notice the difference in the subtle height affects between these 2 models. I figure if I feel the Atmos works well in my room I could always upgrade to Kefs at a later date.

2. Placement. As I’m limited, will placing these on the drawers / cabinet either side still give a decent effect.

3. Amp. The Denon x2500h seems the best bang for buck which was over £500 when released. I’ll be replacing my Yamaha 673 which was a similar price back in the day. And my AV unit won’t house anything much deeper that my current Yamaha at 364mm (plenty of height available in the cabinet but not depth. The back of the cabinet has been cut out to allow additional airflow). So The denon 3500 would be just too deep at 391mm. The 2500 still looks like an upgrade to me with more watts per channel and gets good reviews. Any thoughts? I don’t want to do all this and then realise my old set up was better and I shouldn’t have bothered.

Or there’s the Sony DN1080 which ha Sami come down to £399!? Main use is for movies.

Or shall I just not bother and stick with what I’ve got!

Any input welcome.
 

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Hi folks. Been thinking about unpgrading to Atmos. Got my birthday coming up and feel like treating myself!

Would just be for my main set up in the lounge. See pic.

Currently I have wall mounted Kef T301’s so unable to place anything on top of these speakers. And don’t fancy adding speakers up near the ceiling.

The room is a fairly uniform rectangle box shape. 4m wide x 5m long. 65’ TV along the 4m wall. The sub is a SVS SB1000.

Therefore my only option is to place up firing speakers as close as possible to the front sound stage. On the left I could place one on top of the set of drawers, which happens to be same height and close the main front speakers. On the right I’m limited to the sideboard which is lower in height but still within a couple of feet from the front speaker.

Whilst an amp might compensate for delay/distance in the sound I’m aware the angles when the sound hits the roof won’t be uniform so may need to tilt the one on the left up a bit at the front.

I’ll be looking for speakers discrete as possible. The Kef Q50a look nice and I assume would match my T301’s sonically, but can’t really justify £430 (as I’ll also be buying a new Atmos amp - probably the Denon x2500h which is now reduced again to £375 - to replace my 6 year old Yamaha 673 which isn’t Atmos).

So Thinking the ELAC A4.2 £250new. Or Ive seen the original ELAC A4 for around £130 second hand on eBay (might also have a look on the classifieds). These are 6ohm and my kefs are 8ohm - is that ok?

So a few questions before I take the plunge.

1. Is there much difference between the original ELAC A4 and the A4.2? Is £130 the better deal for my set up? Am I really going to notice the difference in the subtle height affects between these 2 models. I figure if I feel the Atmos works well in my room I could always upgrade to Kefs at a later date.

2. Placement. As I’m limited, will placing these on the drawers / cabinet either side still give a decent effect.

3. Amp. The Denon x2500h seems the best bang for buck which was over £500 when released. I’ll be replacing my Yamaha 673 which was a similar price back in the day. And my AV unit won’t house anything much deeper that my current Yamaha at 364mm (plenty of height available in the cabinet but not depth. The back of the cabinet has been cut out to allow additional airflow). So The denon 3500 would be just too deep at 391mm. The 2500 still looks like an upgrade to me with more watts per channel and gets good reviews. Any thoughts? I don’t want to do all this and then realise my old set up was better and I shouldn’t have bothered.

Or there’s the Sony DN1080 which ha Sami come down to £399!? Main use is for movies.

Or shall I just not bother and stick with what I’ve got!

Any input welcome.

Have a look here Dali Alteco Dolby enabled

Can be used as upfirers us as heights. The general consensus(and in my opinion) is heights are a better use of them. They’re available for £199 here DALI ALTECO C-1 Dolby Atmos / 7.1 / Discrete Stereo Speakers Hot Deals - Huge savings!
 
I think I'm sitting too far away from my Onkyo SKH-410's for them to be effective. If I tilt them I will hear audio coming directly from the speakers rather than bounced. Maybe wall mounting them but tilted could be the go?
 
Turn them off and see if you get the sound that was coming from them in your surrounds or the fronts. The sounds available do not increase because you have more speakers, they are just redistributed and if you get no height impression from the atmos speakers, as with mine, they are redundant
 
Hi,

I've been doing a bit of reading as I'm trying to decide on whether I should try upfiring speakers and came across this post.

I have a 5.1.2 setup and have speakers set to front heights, high on the wall so that the tweeters are almost touching the ceiling pointing down towards the MLP.

2 questions I hope someone can help with.

My AVR supports positioning upfiring speakers on top of the surround speakers and was wondering if this would give a greater sense of overhead effects than the front heights?

Earlier in this thread Anton2015 mentioned that at the time he was using front heights but set the AVR to inceiling (top front maybe?) and felt it sounded better. Has anyone else tried this and found it made a difference?
 
Hi,

I've been doing a bit of reading as I'm trying to decide on whether I should try upfiring speakers and came across this post.

I have a 5.1.2 setup and have speakers set to front heights, high on the wall so that the tweeters are almost touching the ceiling pointing down towards the MLP.

2 questions I hope someone can help with.

My AVR supports positioning upfiring speakers on top of the surround speakers and was wondering if this would give a greater sense of overhead effects than the front heights?

Earlier in this thread Anton2015 mentioned that at the time he was using front heights but set the AVR to inceiling (top front maybe?) and felt it sounded better. Has anyone else tried this and found it made a difference?

Dolby recommend placing Dolby enabled modules at the front as opposed to the rear of a room in a 5.1.2 or a 7.1.2 setup. No, there's no advantage associated with ignoring this advice and placing them at the rear of the room.

There's no reason why incorrecty setting your receiver to regard height speakers as being ceiling speakers would improve the audio. The speakers are still located on your front wall and the setting will not do anything that will result in the audio being better portrayed overhead. If this were not the case then both Dolby and the AV receiver manufacturers would simply be suggesting people do this or they'd omit the front height option completely. Why would they suggest you do something and include a setting that makes audio less effective relative to the speakers location?
 
Hi,

I've been doing a bit of reading as I'm trying to decide on whether I should try upfiring speakers and came across this post.

I have a 5.1.2 setup and have speakers set to front heights, high on the wall so that the tweeters are almost touching the ceiling pointing down towards the MLP.

2 questions I hope someone can help with.

My AVR supports positioning upfiring speakers on top of the surround speakers and was wondering if this would give a greater sense of overhead effects than the front heights?

Earlier in this thread Anton2015 mentioned that at the time he was using front heights but set the AVR to inceiling (top front maybe?) and felt it sounded better. Has anyone else tried this and found it made a difference?
Dante's covered placement and assignment points above. Correctly placed and with the right parameters met for upfiring speakers placed on the front left and right they can prove very effective. They are meant to be placed at the front not at the rear.
 
As I have said before I think atmos with up firing speakers on top of front speakers is rubbish and down firing is better, even if the speaker is designed for up firing, but do not expect planes to travel overhead, it just does not happen. I have heard ceiling speakers at rear, and also at front with no effect but can't find a front and rear ceiling speaker set up to try in my area to see if worth the trouble and expense. I have both PBS Imagine XAs and Dali Alteco C1s and tried both as front and rear up firing and down firing and settled on PBS front and Alteco rear both mounted as height speakers. But no planes overhead, even using the atmos demo disc.
 
Hi Dante01, thanks for such a quick reply and for clarifying things.

Can you help me with another question please? Apologies as it's off topic, I could start a new post if it's more appropriate.

I'm not quite sure if I'll be able to explain this clearly but after running calibration the soundstage appears to be slightly biased towards the right side of my seating position.
It appears to be the height channels rather than the base layer but can't be certain.

I've used the AVR test tones and it sounds ok, as in none of the speakers sound higher or lower than the others. I also tried a sound meter on my phone and everything appears to be balanced.
I've tried increasing the speaker levels on the left side to see if it balances out but still appears to be more right sided.

Any ideas what could be causing it? Could it be room reflections or maybe a fualt developing in the AVR?

Or maybe I'm going deaf in one ear lol.
 
Trying to work and post at the same time and just noticed, thanks for your replies to gibbsy and bert2 also.
 
Hi Dante01, thanks for such a quick reply and for clarifying things.

Can you help me with another question please? Apologies as it's off topic, I could start a new post if it's more appropriate.

I'm not quite sure if I'll be able to explain this clearly but after running calibration the soundstage appears to be slightly biased towards the right side of my seating position.
It appears to be the height channels rather than the base layer but can't be certain.

I've used the AVR test tones and it sounds ok, as in none of the speakers sound higher or lower than the others. I also tried a sound meter on my phone and everything appears to be balanced.
I've tried increasing the speaker levels on the left side to see if it balances out but still appears to be more right sided.
I don't think is unusual, I can hear it on my set up at times.
Just raise/lower your speaker settings to suit you, don't worry if the are a dB or two up/down, set it up for you, always for you and not what the book says (that's only a guide)
Any ideas what could be causing it? Could it be room reflections or maybe a fualt developing in the AVR?

Or maybe I'm going deaf in one ear lol.
 
Thanks fayeanddavid, that's reassuring that you can hear it at times also.

I asked my girlfriend could she hear it but she is not into AV at all and looked at me like I was going insane.

Thanks again.
 

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