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Does this Panasonic discriminate against PAL?

Discussion in 'Projectors, Screens & Video Processors' started by RedRose, Feb 3, 2002.

  1. RedRose

    RedRose
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    In all the excitement about this new pj, have I missed something? As I understand it, it has 480 horizontal lines, and progressive NTSC video has 480 lines. Since progressive PAL has 525 lines of video, won't we be seeing a scaled down picture, thus being at the mercy of the on-board scaler? Surely a pj with 525 lines would serve us Europeans better. If anyone can put me right I'd be delighted.
     
  2. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    NTSC is 525 lines of which 480 are active picture area. PAL is 625 lines of which 576 ish are active.

    You are correct that devices with 480 lines of vertical resolution will have to downscale PAL to make it fit their pixels. A higher native resolution MAY be better for PAL replay.

    Gordon
     
  3. tk

    tk
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    Yes we will see scaled down picture in PAL country. And there is more bad news: Pal is 576 lines of video so SVGA is not enough, you need atleast XGA to see all lines.
     
  4. RedRose

    RedRose
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    Thanks for the quick replies guys.
    Point taken about the horizontal PAL resolution, 576 it is. Since SVGA is 800x600, then 576 lines should be OK.
    But,,, a 16:9 picture with 576 lines would need to be exactly 1024 pixels wide (576/9*16=1024). An XGA display is 1024x768 so to see an unscaled image we PALlies would need to use XGA and just not use 189 (768-576) of the lines available. I suppose we'd better hope the scaler is flippin' good.
     
  5. Timh

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    According to my manual for the Panasonic, in the list for compatible signal's

    pal/pal-n/secam, display resolution is 720 x 576i in video/s-video mode.

    625i mode is 720 x 576i in componant mode. I guess the i should be a p to do pal progressive :confused:
     
  6. tk

    tk
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    No, 625i means interlaced signal. You need 625P/576P mode for pal progressive.
     
  7. Nic Rhodes

    Nic Rhodes
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    This PAL issue is something I have been arguing for some time. It just doesn't make sence to me. XGA or 1024 x 768 makes loads more sense for PAL particularly if you can just address part of the panel (DM like) for PAL using 1024 x 576, match that with a zoom lense and you might have a killer combination without having to go to those widescreen (expensive) pamels.
     
  8. richard plumb

    richard plumb
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    Nic

    That would be great, but we have to face facts here. NTSC is a much bigger marketplace for these projectors, so we have to live with it.

    The image quality from the panasonic is very nice - specs or no specs.

    You can always drive it from a HTPC if you want to bypass the internal scaler, but it seems to do a very good job on its own.

    And as for costs, I would have thought that 1024x768 panels are more expensive to produce than 848x480 ones. And NTSC owners would complain that they are paying for pixels they aren't using (assuming they don't want to scale either and therefore end up using an 848x480 panel anyway)
     
  9. tryingtimes

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    I would have thought that 1024x768 panels will probably be much cheaper to make over the next couple of years due to the high number of them being made for the business market, regardless of the total number of pixels.

    If the difference between NTSC an PAL is really noticable on these 848x480 projectors, then you could do a lot worse than start collecting NTSC films. After all the Americans cope quite well:)

    You will find you willl save all that HMV sale browing time.
    Reduce outgoings by having fewer impulse purchases.
    Relieve stress by removing yourself from all those 'PAL worse picture quality and fewer extras' arguments.
    Take more care over the building of your DVD collection.
    Have dvd case jackets that fewer of your friends have.
    Hide purchases from the wife more easily.
    Get 90% of your releases earlier.
    eeerrrrrmm... Have less cuts?

    Anyway - as soon as I got my big screen I realised just how bad some transfers were and immediately got rid of about 15 UK dvds.
    This gave me enough money to rebuy the ones I really cared about from the US.

    As unhelpful as ever:D
    Alex
     
  10. richard plumb

    richard plumb
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    thats one 'problem' I've noticed.

    I started collecting R2 where possible, due to potentiall better resolution, and no stuttering pans.

    But potentially, with a progressive DVD player, NTSC DVDs will look better on a pj than PAL.

    So I might have to start getting NTSC discs again.

    The only thing is that surely LCD by its nature is a progressive device, so the pj must be doing some deinterlacing internally.

    And is 576 downsampled to 480 really that much worse than 480 native? or even worse at all? Isn't there some benefit in downsampling from a higher resolution source?
     
  11. tryingtimes

    tryingtimes
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    Ah yes I forgot about the 3:2 pulldown problem.
    I don't know what happens to PAL pans when the projectors all run at 60Hz though - or do they also do 50Hz?

    You get less value for money though as all your PAL movies are 4% shorter:D

    The PAL progressive issue is an absolute disgrace and shows up what a mess these 'standard' formats can get into. There are workarounds though - some progressive dvd players do offer PAL progressive with mods and also HCPCs can output PAL progressive with no problems.

    Downscaling can introduce just as many artifacts as upscaling. (Jaggies being a good example). They will vary depending on the quality of the scaler.
    Ultimately, though, you've got to see it in order to make a purchasing decision based on it.
     
  12. richard plumb

    richard plumb
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    if you use a HTPC, you can run NTSC at 72Hz, so there should be no pulldown (providing your software is good)

    I'm amazed that there is no PAL progressive yet. Is there a technical reason why not, because I would have thought that PALprogressive would be easier than NTSC - no pulldown to compensate for - just output pairs of fields at 50Hz.
     
  13. tryingtimes

    tryingtimes
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    NO there's no technical reason - it's just licensing and copy protection nonsense. Basically it's just awaiting a signature somewhere in the black void of admin!

    I thought we were discussing fixed panel projectors, in which case it doesn't matter what refresh rate your HTPC is running at; the projector will still convert it to it's native rate (usually 60Hz) I just wondered if they also do 50Hz.
     
  14. richard plumb

    richard plumb
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    can someone check the PTAE100 manual in the back to see what refresh rates it supports.

    I'd guess it supports multiple ones, certainly 50 and 60Hz.
     
  15. richard plumb

    richard plumb
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    just checked the panasonic website

    fH 30 kHz - 70 kHz, fv 50 Hz - 87 Hz
    YPBPR signals 525i (480i), 625 i, 525p (480p), 750p(720p), 1125i(1080i)


    That's for inputs, so I guess it doesn't mean anything, but surely if it was 60Hz only, 50Hz would look really bad (and it doesn't)?

    NEed a manual to check though...
     
  16. Nic Rhodes

    Nic Rhodes
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    Richard

    Which market is bigger, NTSC or PAL. My understanding is there are more PAL users in the world than NTSC, though the split is roughly the same. In my book that makes PAL the bigger market, the fact the US probably buys more projectors is just the current maturity of the market. You only have to look at the interest in projects here to know it is not a niche market any more but a rapidly growing one.

    We don't have to live with it at all, we can tell manufacturers what WE want / need.

    Many of us want better than 'NICE' for picture quality even from cheap projectors like the Panny. My biggest issue re these cheap projectors isn't necessarilly the resolution but the electronics that drive them. Use standard de-interlacing / scaling and the DM panel can look iffy with R2. give it a Sage or Far and then it is different kettle of fish. If however they went for my PAL friendly panel they wouldn't have these electronics problems as there would be no need for 'standard' deinterlacing / scaling. In a year or two we are likely to get PAL Progressive officially from players, the projector we buy now will need to beable to deal with this and give us added benefit (picture quality). The NTSC players can't.

    I have a HCPC, The single biggest pain in the butt IMHO, but I stick with it because of the potential picture quality. It actually has more relevance for CRT IMHO not panel projectors.

    The world seems to be going to XGA as a standard on laptops and projectos. Economies of scale would seem to indicate to me that XGA panels will be the cheapest.

    We don't have to lump it, we cn ask for what we want. Look at Tag.
     

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