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Does the VT65 really use the new 2013 panel?

Grexeo

Active Member
Over at HDJ there's a post by AVJunkie (Panasonic employee) who has stated that only the ZT60 uses the new 2013 panel in the North American range:

AVJunkie said:
Darth Cardo said:
ST/VT60 are using a 2012 panel while ZT60 uses a new one?
Correct.

(Source)

Admittedly Panasonic models do differ around the world, but an entirely different panel seems a bit strange, especially with the NA model having the inferior panel. (Usually they get all the bells and whistles)

There's quite a few people claiming that the VT65 (UK/EU model) uses the same panel as the ZT65. Where did this claim originate from? I've searched and searched but can't find the original source.
 

MahaRaja

Well-known Member
That's an interesting question. This forum interviewed Fabrice, Pana Euro rep, in CES and Euro launch of Pana TVs and he stated clearly that ZT60 is a brand new panel, all other plasma models are tweaked. However, the TPS (Bumtous) tells us that VT65 uses brand new panel.
 

fluxo

Distinguished Member
Both the VT60 and ZT60 have the "DCI 98% Color Space" thing.
 
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davidcrofter

Well-known Member
Pretty sure it is a tweaked VT50 panel - whether that means it is classed as new I am not sure. TBH I don't think it really matters what the spec sheets say as it doesn't seem to be performing too bad and I would rather spend a lot of money on a tweaked panel than something completely new ... as that usually hasn't worked out too well for Panasonic.
 

Scooby2000

Distinguished Member
Pretty sure it is a tweaked VT50 panel - whether that means it is classed as new I am not sure. TBH I don't think it really matters what the spec sheets say as it doesn't seem to be performing too bad and I would rather spend a lot of money on a tweaked panel than something completely new ... as that usually hasn't worked out too well for Panasonic.

This^^^^
The ZT is the only set to have the bonded glass but the other sets are improved so could be classed as new. One things fir sure, everybody agrees the VT doesn't have the ZT panel. Easy to miss-quote or understand what people post in here, context is very important especially when quoting another in some way(he said she said).

Id say this years sets have new panels and the ZT has a new panel design myself.
 

ConnecTEDDD

Active Member
Hello, the DCI 98% for ZT60 is a joke, it's only marketing bs, look below these are measurements taken using JETI 1211 (11.000$) Spectro at native mode, LightSpace CMS Software reports 72% DCI P3 coverage.
I'm attaching the pictures of CIE Charts below:

379306.png
379305.png
 

fluxo

Distinguished Member
Interesting post ConnecteDDD.

Do you perhaps have some information about the settings you used? I would think you chose the right ones (native gamut, etc), but it would still be nice to know which (within reason).

Also, last year's 50 series models also had an extended gamut setting. It had occurred to me that Panasonic might be sneakily marketing something that was actually introduced back in 2012. Could that be possible?
 

ConnecTEDDD

Active Member
Yes, I was at native mode, the red and green extended a lot with that option.

Consumer companies always are giving out BS specs for marketing, see 1x.xxxx.xxxx:1 contrast ratio or 1xxxHz refreshing rates etc.

For Example, a Professional new Panasonic post-production display the same company tha said that ZT60 covers 98% of DCI P3 says now that their PRO monitor covers almost 96% of DCI with 23.500$ cost for 31 inch 4K resolution, is available in stock here.

PANASONIC UNVEILS BT-4LH310 LCD PRODUCTION MONITOR WITH NATIVE 4K RESOLUTION FOR 4K/2K/HD CINEMA PRODUCTION

A true cinema production tool, the 4LH310 supports the DCI-P3 color space (defined by more than a 96% cover area), and facilitates digital cinema workflow with a LUT upload function.
 

ConnecTEDDD

Active Member
Viera13_DCI_98Percent_ColorSpace.jpg


Is that true? DCI 98% Coverage from a Panasonic ZT60/VT60 Consumer Display? or it's 100% marketing BS? Lets see.... ;)

Panasonic Consumer xx60 Series DCI / REC 709 Comparison Test.


Test Conditions Info


Displays:
ZT60 / VT60 / ST60

Meter:
JETI 1211 Lab Grade Spectro (11.000$) Note: Don't ask about Black Level measurement that is reported 0.02xx cdm/2 @ Pictures. The meter's measuring luminance range where the results are accurate is 0.100cdm/2 - 2.500cdm/2.
(Thanks mkoper for the measurements)

Software:
LightSpace CMS

Pattern Source:
Blu-ray Player using Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk, Window patterns 11.11% sized used, LightSpace Quick Profiling DIP Mode Chapter with 81 Color Patches measurements, 21-Point Grayscale + 21-Point Luminance with 100% Saturation of Red,Green, Blue.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Panasonic ZT60 Native Gamut CIE 1931 Chart with REC.709 Target Color Space:

1000x1000px-LL-5813a596_ZT01.png


After LightSpace Color Space Conversion to REC.709 target:

1000x1000px-LL-ecf1db1d_ZT03.png


ZT60 can reach 99% of the REC.709 ColorSpace.


NOTE: 100% coverage is impossible because the very dark (5%) color luminance measurements can't be corrected to meet the specs.
These low luminance measurements can be seen at CIE Chart Picture where you see black cross targets at random positions, These colors can't be fixed so 99% is the maximum coverage number that can be reported. ;)

Panasonic ZT60 Native Gamut CIE 1931 Chart with DCI P3 Target Color Space:

1000x1000px-LL-f01a5641_ZT02.png


After LightSpace Color Space Conversion to DCI P3 Color Space Target:

1000


ZT60 can reach 72% of the DCI P3 Color Space.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Panasonic VT60 Native Gamut CIE 1931 Chart with REC.709 Target Color Space:

1000x1000px-LL-2133da14_VT6001.png


After LightSpace Color Space Conversion to REC.709 target:

1000x1000px-LL-e3fe3165_VT6003.png


VT60 can reach 99% of the REC.709 ColorSpace.

NOTE: 100% coverage is impossible because the very dark (5%) color luminance measurements can't be corrected to meet the specs.
These low luminance measurements can be seen at CIE Chart Picture where you see black cross targets at random positions, These colors can't be fixed so 99% is the maximum coverage number that can be reported. ;)

Panasonic VT60 Native Gamut CIE 1931 Chart with DCI P3 Target Color Space

1000x1000px-LL-bf8bf918_VT6002.png


After LightSpace Color Space Conversion to DCI P3 Color Space Target:

1000x1000px-LL-a8d40aa3_VT6004.png


VT60 can reach 73% of the DCI P3 Color Space.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Panasonic ST60 Native Gamut CIE 1931 Chart with REC.709 Target Color Space:

1000x1000px-LL-9f9c5632_ST6001.png


After LightSpace Color Space Conversion to REC.709 target:

1000x1000px-LL-729ee8ed_ST6003.png


ST60 can reach 99% of the REC.709 ColorSpace.

NOTE: 100% coverage is impossible because the very dark (5%) color luminance measurements can't be corrected to meet the specs.
These low luminance measurements can be seen at CIE Chart Picture where you see black cross targets at random positions, These colors can't be fixed so 99% is the maximum coverage number that can be reported. ;)

Panasonic ST60 CIE 1931 Chart with DCI P3 Target Color Space:

1000x1000px-LL-43df7a60_ST6002.png


After LightSpace Color Space Conversion to DCI P3 Color Space Target:

1000x1000px-LL-91f8b1c0_ST6004.png


ST60 can reach 62% of the DCI P3 Color Space.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Test Results Bottom Line: Don't believe any company's marketing division say's to sell or promote. ;)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Refreshing Rate (Hz) Flicker Analysis Test using Klein K-10A will follow another day, by measuring the panels working refreshing rate changes over different Input Signal (24p/50i/50p/60i/60p).

1000x1000px-LL-552f4119_kleinfft_for_K-10_flicker_Testing.jpeg
 

fluxo

Distinguished Member
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ConnecTEDDD

Active Member
LightSpace CMS Colour Space Conversion reports how much of the 'Raw' gamut of the display can potentially be accurately calibrated. This is calculated by taking a Quick Profiling measurents of the Primary Colors (21-Point per color channel) of the display at it's native mode (largest gamut of the display), and later a full 3D-LUT profiling is performed with 17-Point (4.913 Color Points) or 21-Point (9.261 Color Points) resolution to match each color space's requiriments.

DCI P3 is the colorspace that is used for Film in theatrical release. The only large inch display that can work with near 98% DCI P3 ColorSpace coverage is the Dolby monitor (55.000$). But @ professional world they prefer projectors for fim granding, BARCO/Christy/Projection Design/NEC, ~35.000$ the cheaper one...
 

fluxo

Distinguished Member
Thank you. I went to LightSpace site and looked at their manual, but I couldn't find a description of what the various markings in the charts above are supposed to be. So I guessed that the outer triangle represents the target gamut and the inner triangle the measured display gamut.

If you look at the VT DCI chart, the inner triangle must surely have an area >73% of the area of the outer triangle. But those triangles are, presumably, only slices through the colour space and coverage could be measured in terms of volumes?

Thanks.
 

ConnecTEDDD

Active Member
White Triangle lines are the Destination ColorSpace, gray lines is the measured, but the gray line is based to the 100% Saturation / 100% Luminance reading per each color Channel.
 

fluxo

Distinguished Member
White Triangle lines are the Destination ColorSpace, gray lines is the measured, but the gray line is based to the 100% Saturation / 100% Luminance reading per each color Channel.

Ah, ok. So for a lower luminance level the inner triangle could be smaller relative to the outer white triangle?
 

ConnecTEDDD

Active Member
exactly, that's why you see 99% coverage and not 100% of REC.709

LightSpace is coming from Film/Post Production Industry, it's a 3D-LUT Color Management Software, they know well how to calculate things ;)
 

fluxo

Distinguished Member
Can the CMS saturation controls of the ZT/VT/ST increase coverage? There are obviously a lot of settings on these TVs that could affect results, unless, perhaps, the CMS is being bypassed in some way.

Looking at the charts, I wonder if the limited gamut coverage is caused by panel driving rather than being a phosphor colour purity issue (Panasonic link their DCI claim to a new red phosphor type).

Thanks again.
 
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ConnecTEDDD

Active Member
The native mode provides the largest possible gamut, you can't increase the saturation with controls, only desaturate.

Yes panasonic increased the Red Phoshor, it's slight wider at CIR chart vs. the ST60 Red but still can't do 98% DCI as they advertise.

This is not a problem for HT users, since we don't have access to DCI material. The problem is the fake features advertising.

I want to do a LED/LCD Panel Frequency Analysing one day to various top LCD/LED panels and post their real operating Hz.
 

fluxo

Distinguished Member
Thanks. I guess I'm wondering why they can almost extend to full gamut at 100% luminance, but not at <100%.
 

ConnecTEDDD

Active Member
100% coverage is impossible because the very dark (5%) color luminance measurements can't be corrected to meet the specs.
These low luminance measurements can be seen at CIE Chart Picture where you see black cross targets at random positions, These colors can't be fixed so 99% is the maximum coverage number that can be reported.
 

fluxo

Distinguished Member
100% coverage is impossible because the very dark (5%) color luminance measurements can't be corrected to meet the specs.
These low luminance measurements can be seen at CIE Chart Picture where you see black cross targets at random positions, These colors can't be fixed so 99% is the maximum coverage number that can be reported.

Ok, yes. But what is going on between 5% and 100%, where, I presume, most of the coverage is missing? Do you have, perhaps, any intermediate charts? The trouble with the 100% charts is that they actually look pretty good, as far as gamut coverage goes. If you only saw those charts and didn't know the percentage, a guess of 98% would not seem far off.

So what I'm saying is that, although I don't doubt your figures, the charts don't really help in illustrating the shortfall.

Cheers.
 
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ConnecTEDDD

Active Member
The above CIE Chart's (and generally all CIE Charts) don't show/report the Luminance level (Y), it displays the 21-Point RGBW measured points (x,y), later LightSpace calculates the correction matrix to match the selected target and it displays to you the percentage that a valid correction LUT can do.
 

fluxo

Distinguished Member
The above CIE Chart's (and generally all CIE Charts) don't show/report the Luminance level (Y), it displays the 21-Point RGBW measured points (x,y), later LightSpace calculates the correction matrix to match the selected target and it displays to you the percentage that a valid correction LUT can do.

Ah, ok. So there are 84 crosses on that chart, but that's not obvious become some (a lot) are superimposed?
 

fluxo

Distinguished Member
There 81 in total, there 20-Point Luminance Patterns (5-100%) all with 100% Saturation that measured per Primary Colors, + 21-Step Grayscale.

I have to say I'm a bit perplexed. Ignoring the 5% points, the ZT/VT don't look far off DCI P3 in those charts. I'll measure the triangle areas when I'm at my computer, but those inner triangles I would guess are a lot larger than 72-73% of the area of the larger ones. If it's not a simple area measurement, then please do say so.
 

ConnecTEDDD

Active Member
CIE 1931 is not perceptually uniform, you can't draw same lines and calculate the area of each triangle to see the coverage difference, that's why I used a defacto software from Pro-Industry (LightSpace CMS) to do these calculations.
 

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