Does CENTRE speaker have to match front LEFT/RIGHT?

Conrad

Moderator
It's a controversial topic, but passive bi-amping has very little, if any, value in my experience.

If you feed the same full range signal to two channels in the same amp, the amp has to amplify two full range signals. When those signals are sent to the speaker each half of the crossover "discards" the half it's not configured to use, and sends the other half to the drivers, so the energy spent amplifying the full range signal is wasted. No extra power is driving the drivers.

Active bi-amping, where you run the crossover first and then send just the HF or LF signal to each channel in the amp can make a difference, as now you're only asking the amp to amplify the signal that'll get used by the drivers connected to that channel. Active bi-amping is a much harder thing to implement though and involves removing the crossovers from your speakers.

The only benefit to passive bi-amping is that you're increasing the gauge of the speaker wire and possibly increasing the damping factor of the amp.
 

rccarguy2

Distinguished Member
It's a controversial topic, but passive bi-amping has very little, if any, value in my experience.

If you feed the same full range signal to two channels in the same amp, the amp has to amplify two full range signals. When those signals are sent to the speaker each half of the crossover "discards" the half it's not configured to use, and sends the other half to the drivers, so the energy spent amplifying the full range signal is wasted. No extra power is driving the drivers.

Active bi-amping, where you run the crossover first and then send just the HF or LF signal to each channel in the amp can make a difference, as now you're only asking the amp to amplify the signal that'll get used by the drivers connected to that channel. Active bi-amping is a much harder thing to implement though and involves removing the crossovers from your speakers.

The only benefit to passive bi-amping is that you're increasing the gauge of the speaker wire and possibly increasing the damping factor of the amp.

With outlaw ICBM 1 high pass I can cut out below response of the speaker so in effect analogue bass management. Not the same as true Linn Aktiv crossover but useful in two channel hifi
 

Conrad

Moderator
With outlaw ICBM 1 high pass I can cut out below response of the speaker so in effect analogue bass management. Not the same as true Linn Aktiv crossover but useful in two channel hifi
Sure. Same as a minidsp, right?
You'd have to put that in front of your amp, send the two halves to the individual channels and then on to the speakers. You'd also have to bypass the speaker's crossover.

Just chucking another amp in the chain is, in my view, pointless. Fun though.
 

rccarguy2

Distinguished Member
Sure. Same as a minidsp, right?
You'd have to put that in front of your amp, send the two halves to the individual channels and then on to the speakers. You'd also have to bypass the speaker's crossover.

Just chucking another amp in the chain is, in my view, pointless. Fun though.

Minidsp is digital, ICBM keeps bass managment on analogue domain. Mine has upgraded opamps and linear PSU
 

Conrad

Moderator
Minidsp is digital, ICBM keeps bass managment on analogue domain. Mine has upgraded opamps and linear PSU
ICBM only has XO up to 120Hz so completely unsuitable.
 

rccarguy2

Distinguished Member
ICBM only has XO up to 120Hz so completely unsuitable.

That's plenty unless you have tiny speakers.

Course that's not the mid/treble crossover, just the bass F3.

It's not line level speaker crossover network (Linn Aktiv) just what avr bass management is, with passive components in analogue domain.
 

joysleep1

Active Member
Well i have really good van Damme 2.5mm speaker wire into my Polk towers so that kinda makes it pointless to bi-amp even more right?
 

Conrad

Moderator
If you have the speaker wire and the channels spare, it’s free to test. But personally I wouldn’t invest much time or money into doing it.
 

Conrad

Moderator
That's plenty unless you have tiny speakers.

Course that's not the mid/treble crossover, just the bass F3.

It's not line level speaker crossover network (Linn Aktiv) just what avr bass management is, with passive components in analogue domain.

That’s bass management, not bi-amping.

You know you don’t have to comment on every thread, right?
 

rccarguy2

Distinguished Member
That’s bass management, not bi-amping.

You know you don’t have to comment on every thread, right?

I used the ICBM in biamp system so both amps received >60hz
 

joysleep1

Active Member
Hey Guys

Quick question

I was reading up on a review on the XTZ and another unboxing video and the person mentioned that you need to break in the subwoofer a bit so dont play it loud straight away.

How true is this. ? If so, how should i go about doing this?
 

Gasp3621

Distinguished Member
Hey Guys

Quick question

I was reading up on a review on the XTZ and another unboxing video and the person mentioned that you need to break in the subwoofer a bit so dont play it loud straight away.

How true is this. ? If so, how should i go about doing this?

You said you don`t listen loud in first place so just keep playing it like you would normally. :) Hopefully it arrives today. Set the knobs like i wrote earlier and do check that you get the "subwoofer level" in the high -10db to -6db range after Audussey run and you only do 3mic position run cause you might need to run it again. Make sure wife/kids/mom are out of house when you run it so no one is screaming there!

Set the gain knob to 10-11clock before you run the setup, someone said it´s quit sensitive so maybe this will be ok. What we are trying to achieve is the minus db trim for the subwoofer level so you can tweak the sub from the menu while sitting on couch, meaning you don´t need to touch the knobs behind the sub ever again. Audussey sets the bass rather light so we need to "boost" it afterwards from the denon menu. Example if it comes back -8db then we can change it from the menu to -4db or -2db depending of your taste and naturally some movies have more anemic bass than others. So when you have run the setup check what you got and we go forward from there.
 

joysleep1

Active Member
You said you don`t listen loud in first place so just keep playing it like you would normally. :) Hopefully it arrives today. Set the knobs like i wrote earlier and do check that you get the "subwoofer level" in the high -10db to -6db range after Audussey run and you only do 3mic position run cause you might need to run it again. Make sure wife/kids/mom are out of house when you run it so no one is screaming there!

Set the gain knob to 10-11clock before you run the setup, someone said it´s quit sensitive so maybe this will be ok. What we are trying to achieve is the minus db trim for the subwoofer level so you can tweak the sub from the menu while sitting on couch, meaning you don´t need to touch the knobs behind the sub ever again. Audussey sets the bass rather light so we need to "boost" it afterwards from the denon menu. Example if it comes back -8db then we can change it from the menu to -4db or -2db depending of your taste and naturally some movies have more anemic bass than others. So when you have run the setup check what you got and we go forward from there.

Ok thanks for that.

Scheduled to arrive anytime before 12.45. I get off work around 5 so will be get to play around 6ish. I wanna go home early to see my new baby in action. LOL
 

David Alexander

Active Member
The joys of UPS :) . I'd missed a number of deliveries because they consistently said delivery before 2pm on the tracking service and yet each time the delivery driver would arrive between 3-3:30 bang on when the wife was picking the kids up. I think that the 3-3.30 time was just the drivers 'normal' drop off time for us on his route. In the end I worked from home so I could waylay him on the day.

I never did break mine in. I Just let them get to room temperature :) . It doesn't mention a breaking period in the XTZ literature.

@Gasp3621 I may have to revisit the Dirac EQ on my set up as with duals my gains are no more than 10 O'clock and may not be much more than 9 O'clock. When I look at the subwoofer level on the app they are set to +3db. Although to get a real bass boost for those movie moments I don't need to push this more that +6db on the app. I don't listen much above -20db to reference though on the arcam volume control so maybe that's putting the subs at -17 to -14db? Fortunately I think my neighbour is deaf and the kids sleep like logs.

When I ran with a single I didn't need to take the gain to much more than 11 (without having run any EQ)
 

joysleep1

Active Member
The joys of UPS :) . I'd missed a number of deliveries because they consistently said delivery before 2pm on the tracking service and yet each time the delivery driver would arrive between 3-3:30 bang on when the wife was picking the kids up. I think that the 3-3.30 time was just the drivers 'normal' drop off time for us on his route. In the end I worked from home so I could waylay him on the day.

I never did break mine in. I Just let them get to room temperature :) . It doesn't mention a breaking period in the XTZ literature.

@Gasp3621 I may have to revisit the Dirac EQ on my set up as with duals my gains are no more than 10 O'clock and may not be much more than 9 O'clock. When I look at the subwoofer level on the app they are set to +3db. Although to get a real bass boost for those movie moments I don't need to push this more that +6db on the app. I don't listen much above -20db to reference though on the arcam volume control so maybe that's putting the subs at -17 to -14db? Fortunately I think my neighbour is deaf and the kids sleep like logs.

When I ran with a single I didn't need to take the gain to much more than 11 (without having run any EQ)
Oh man dont scare me about UPS. I have told my wife i am expecting a very important parcel. LOL
 

David Alexander

Active Member
Oh man dont scare me about UPS. I have told my wife i am expecting a very important parcel. LOL
To be fair, I think UPS are one of the better delivery companies (although that's not saying much).

They seem more geared towards the commercial wold than being particularly sensitive to domestic needs. They're 'groundstaff' don't work weekends and it takes around 24 hours to get info from the call centre based based in god-knows-where to the level of the depot.

On the plus side is that they don't sub out the delivery work and their loaders and drivers have always treated my precious cargo with respect.
 

joysleep1

Active Member
OK guys. Finally set it up.

Sounds really good

Even managed to tilt my centre speaker too


Finally my set is complete for now.

Thanks for all the advice everyone.
 

joysleep1

Active Member
Gosh it came in a big box tho. I am glad it just about fit.

There are so many settings that i want to try out but i cant be asked to keep recalibrating it.

It was so simple with the BK one .
 

Gasp3621

Distinguished Member
Gosh it came in a big box tho. I am glad it just about fit.

There are so many settings that i want to try out but i cant be asked to keep recalibrating it.

It was so simple with the BK one .

Stick with the settings i wrote earlier (esp the port bungs and REF) and you are good if the subwoofer level came back fairly high negative figure after Audussey run. As i said if you want more oomph reduce that (example from -8db to -4db), but do not touch knobs. You can post what you got if you want.
 

joysleep1

Active Member
Stick with the settings i wrote earlier (esp the port bungs and REF) and you are good if the subwoofer level came back fairly high negative figure after Audussey run. As i said if you want more oomph reduce that (example from -8db to -4db), but do not touch knobs. You can post what you got if you want.

I watched a movie yesterday. Your settings were absolutely spot on

Excellent experience
 

sanjualf

Active Member
I think it´s the earlier room order of @sanjualf . What i remember he has the system different now, at least the subwoofers are in different places. :) Maybe Sanjualf can comment more.

You can benefit from dual subs even in very small room so one shouldn´t think it as more bass only as the main reason for buying multiple woofers is for getting smoother response with no localization. You might have big holes in the room response and they might not be solved by moving sub/mlp. This is where the 2nd sub comes handy.


Hi @Gasp3621 thanks for showing up the picture and noted some debate on the distance of MLP and subwoofer closeness and room size from @joysleep1 and @Derek S-H

Sorry I have not been frequenting the forums much lately , much to my annoyance after almost perfecting the sound to the best I can squeeze out of my current setup last year as you may recall @Gasp3621 . Due to being a busy NHS worker with two young kids chickens, garden to manage over the weekend, and acquiring a dog , I haven't been watching movies much lately. My last postal discs from cinema paradiso rentals which arrived 3 month ago are still in their sleeves haha

Well to answer your questions Joysleep and Derek, yes that was avery old picture of my setup Gasp posted when i initially acquired the XTZ's 12.17 5 years ago I think. The TV was tiny 40 Inch Phillips direct LED . The MLP from the Speakers is 3 m. That setup gave fantastic chest thump and output above 30 hz , but sadly goes a cliff below that.
My current setup is with 55inch Panny OLED but as you can see from the picture I have moved the subs to optimal positions One sub is at far corner near the widow hidden by the plant another sub in other corner behind the piano hidden. They produce epic bass now

IMG_9451.jpg


The full dimension of the room is 9m x3.5m
I haven't gone for bigger TV as it will encroach on the LR speakers and though I can wall mount them further apart and I am in no rush to do this now as we are planning a major renovation early next year and I will get a dedicated TV/ cinema room then so the whole kit will get an upgrade . hehe. Cheers all and keep enjoying the forums

Sanjay
 

joysleep1

Active Member
Hi @Gasp3621 thanks for showing up the picture and noted some debate on the distance of MLP and subwoofer closeness and room size from @joysleep1 and @Derek S-H

Sorry I have not been frequenting the forums much lately , much to my annoyance after almost perfecting the sound to the best I can squeeze out of my current setup last year as you may recall @Gasp3621 . Due to being a busy NHS worker with two young kids chickens, garden to manage over the weekend, and acquiring a dog , I haven't been watching movies much lately. My last postal discs from cinema paradiso rentals which arrived 3 month ago are still in their sleeves haha

Well to answer your questions Joysleep and Derek, yes that was avery old picture of my setup Gasp posted when i initially acquired the XTZ's 12.17 5 years ago I think. The TV was tiny 40 Inch Phillips direct LED . The MLP from the Speakers is 3 m. That setup gave fantastic chest thump and output above 30 hz , but sadly goes a cliff below that.
My current setup is with 55inch Panny OLED but as you can see from the picture I have moved the subs to optimal positions One sub is at far corner near the widow hidden by the plant another sub in other corner behind the piano hidden. They produce epic bass now

View attachment 1677146

The full dimension of the room is 9m x3.5m
I haven't gone for bigger TV as it will encroach on the LR speakers and though I can wall mount them further apart and I am in no rush to do this now as we are planning a major renovation early next year and I will get a dedicated TV/ cinema room then so the whole kit will get an upgrade . hehe. Cheers all and keep enjoying the forums

Sanjay
Nice

I'm also an NHS worker
 

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