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do you see rainbows?

Discussion in 'Projectors, Screens & Video Processors' started by G a f f e r, Apr 6, 2004.

?
  1. I see rainbows and they bother me

    30 vote(s)
    55.6%
  2. I see rainbows but can live with them

    12 vote(s)
    22.2%
  3. I can't see rainbows

    12 vote(s)
    22.2%
  1. G a f f e r

    G a f f e r
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    simple pole really. Interestingly, I heard that people who wear glasses are more prone to them (i wear them and I'm prone).
    Obviously, better dlp's have less rainbow artifact, but they're still there for people who're sensitive so hopefully q's still valid.

    Just interesting to note what the general consensus is.
     
  2. lmccauley

    lmccauley
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    I see rainbows to the point where they bother me with the old single speed wheels, but not with the newer, faster wheels with more colour elements. Don't know which of your options to put that in.

    Cheers,
    Liam
     
  3. G a f f e r

    G a f f e r
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    I know, it's tricky to keep it simple with newer wheel systems/chips coming out every day. I think the q's should apply to the current average everyday technology / chipset. A question I asked myself before buying my (LCD) projector was, based on wether I see rainbows or not, am I willing to opt for a dlp at a similar price or not (btw the answer is no because the rainbows on the H30 bother me and it's similarly priced to the Panny AE500 I own).

    I've probably made it less clear now (oops), but I think the q to ask is : Am I bothered by rainbows in dlp's at the same rough price point as my current projector?

    because this applies to the decision process people make when buying/choosing their projector
     
  4. LV426

    LV426
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    Never yet seen a one-chip DLP that didn't cause me problems. No, not even the new SIM at Manchester.

    The 3-chip DLP they had was another story though........
     
  5. Quatermass

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    Crikey, looking at the results so far you can see why lcd's are still popular!
     
  6. Liam @ Prog AV

    Liam @ Prog AV
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    Dare I say there are people who initially see rainbows but now don't? With there being a few factors influencing rainbows (colour wheel size and speed, distance from and size of screen for example) we're never going to get any sort of conclusive poll result.

    But, I for one am interested to see who used to see them but now doesn't, or does much less so. Anyone care to reply who falls into this category (and with which projector, and if you wear glasses ;) )?

    I for one felt physically sick watching an X1, but less so by the end of the weekend that I had borrowed it on (and it was my first DLP experience). I still see the odd few on the budget DLPs where i would classify myself in the not bothered column, but never on the NEC, Sharp 200, DP, pretty much all recent HD2s (excepting for the odd all white scene where it is apparent but not bothered over). I would argue that for some people (I just don't know how many) that it is possible to adjust to rainbow effect.

    Crazy ramblings of a DLP lover maybe :zonked: .... but interesting to find out who thinks the same
     
  7. G a f f e r

    G a f f e r
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    again, poll really applies to wether you see them now or not as this will affect what you buy. If you could see them before, but can't now, you wouldn't be averse to shortlisting DLP's on your shopping list if you had to buy a projector today, so you would poll "cannot see rainbows"
    As i already said, different price points give different technologies, so simply concentrate on the current price point of your projector (you can't get a definitive answer of wether rainbows are a problem or not because it's so subjective......the point of the poll is to get an overall feel only if you realistically had to buy one today instead of travelling back in time to buy one last year :))

    however, to keep everyone happy, how's about changing it to this (moderator - help needed to alter poll):

    could see and used to bother me --- still can see and does bother me
    could see and used to bother me --- still can see but doesn't bother me
    could see but didn't bother me --- still can see and does bother me
    could see but didn't bother me --- still can see but doesn't bother me
    could see and used to bother me --- now can't see
    could see but didn't bother me --- now can't see
    couldn't see before --- now can see and does bother me
    couldn't see before --- now can see but doesn't bother me
    couldn't see before --- can't see now

    thanx everyone for making the poll SOOO much simpler :smashin:
     
  8. Kramer

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    Another complicated poll :D

    I'll certainly edit it for you but think it needs slightly better wording/options.

    Any other suggestions Gaffer or anyone else?
     
  9. Liam @ Prog AV

    Liam @ Prog AV
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    Wow! What about still can see, doesn't bother me, I wear glasses. Still can see, does bother me I sit too close to my screen......

    Just kidding! But you've gotta love the old rainbow debate :D

    For those that haven't seen it have a look here for a bit of a study on the phenomenon:

    http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,3973,1153392,00.asp
     
  10. Mr.D

    Mr.D
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    Sharp 9000 --terrible full screen rainbow flashups very nasty.
    Sim2 HT200DM ---not bad still rainbows but only horizontal bands on the image evry so often. Not as bright or violent as the Sharp.
    Virtuoso--- excellent picture ( could have been quite happy with this) but on transitions from dark to light shots quite nasty violent rainbows ...very bright also. Made a concious efffort to not see them...didn't work.

    I'm looking at probably the sony HS20 until a 3 panel dlp or a good sub 6k dila comes out.
     
  11. rOAdeh

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    oof guess im not that affected then i didnt see any rainbows on the sharp apart from one scene in the matrix which someone had said was a good test for them..

    I'd be interested to also see how old people are in relation to how much this effects them - though not sure how you'd implement a poll.. I'm only 19 and don't seem to be very susceptible despite wearing glasses

    I've also read that people become more sensitive as they get older - wonder if there's an age that suddenly your brain flicks a switch and says 'no more!'

    Also read that women can be more susceptible. Would again be interesting if we can correlate the proportion of each sex at a specific age group (ok maybe thats a bit too demanding for such a casual poll :p)
     
  12. LV426

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    50 and in my own experience - I believe I have got more sensitive. This is more in relation to PAL CRT 50hz flicker than Rainbows (since the latter is a new phenomenon along wth the source - 1-chip DLPs), but I suspect that the cause (ie a given level of visual acuity) is the same. Of course it may be that it isn't years, but a greater predisposition towards larger screens.
     
  13. buns

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    Its an interesting poll...... we here all these figures of who can and cant see the rainbows...... i wonder whether they were actually sensibly attained...... for all we know these figures were attained by taking 1000 80 year olds.....

    ad
     
  14. KraGorn

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    My first experience of a DLP was an HT1000 and I found the rainbows unbearable, but I only had a couple of hours to decide if I wanted the machine or not, so I sent it back.

    I then decided to try a 5x machine and got a Sharp Z200E .. I still see rainbows but less than on the 1000, moreover having now watched around 100 hours of material I find the rainbows I do see barely register more than an 'oh, a rainbow!', whereas in the beginning I found myself distracted considerably.

    Whether I've 'trained' myself not to see them, or my eyes/brain compensate or what I don't know, my conclusion though is that the effect certainly does diminish in annoyance-level over time and I'm now glad I persisted because IMHO there's no doubt DLPs do provide a better PQ than LCDs, in general.
     
  15. tazpc

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    My first DLP (and only so far)
    Horrendous rainbows.
    Second hand model in a shop without much info on colour wheel resolution.
    Was put completlely off DLP
    Did some research and found info on resoltion (800x600)
    Still no info on colour wheel found.
    Maybe I should try some other models before ruling DLP out
     
  16. Philly112

    Philly112
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    Interesting results, but all the research I have read indicates that the vast majority of the population can't see them. I have a Sharp Z91E, and this must have been viewed by 20 people. Now, not one single person has mentioned the fact that they are seeing 'flashes', 'rainbows' etc. Maybe people need to be told what to look for? I did in fact tell the first few guests round that they may see them (in case they thought I had bought a pile of ****e!), but no, not one comment.
    Looking at this survey so far two thirds of people find them a problem, and that just can't be right!
     
  17. LV426

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    It's only a small sample. And it's probably attracted those who have an opinion i.e. those who know what the phenomenon is and why. Which will give it a bias, maybe.

    Equally, it doesn't cover what I suspect is a silent majority who are in some unfathomable way discomforted or tired or strained when watching DLP for prolonged periods, and who simply go home thinking 'I'll keep my TV, thanks'.
     
  18. mikeaitch

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    I had started to think that rainbows were something only seen by super - critical experts who were consciously looking for them, shaking their head violently from side to side etc. I saw lots of dlps from the Sharp Z91 to the 300 SIM

    Never saw a rainbow once.

    THEN........



    I went into Sound and Vision in Bolton, walked into the dem room and saw a picture which was just a mess... every few seconds a wierd flash of bright colours, made me feel really queasy to watch it for any length of time:eek:

    Can't remember if it was the Tosh mx10 or the Epsom TW10, but i wouldn't have one for free - and free is my favourite word...

    Couldn't risk it with G/F and kids, not after not seeing them previously for so long.

    Bought a HS20

    Don't get me wrong though, I think DLP has the edge for pq :rolleyes: :p
     
  19. uczmeg

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    I've chosen NO as my answer.

    However I'm sure it is possible for everyone to see rainbows if they try. For example, with a set of credits and if wave my head around madly I get the odd flash!

    A dozen people have watched my NEC HT1000 so far and no one has complained about rainbows, flashes or feeling bad. Maybe they have seen the odd rainbow but discounted it as they don't know they are there or to expect them.

    Cheers
    Marc
     
  20. Peter Baker

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    I agree with Marc. I can see rainbows when I look for them ( ie rapidly moving head on bright scenes. I also occasionally see them in normal watching - BUT they have never really interfered with my enjoyment of a film. As for LCD v DLP, having had both I can say that for me the PQ on DLP is far better, much more perceived depth of image.
    I have also had about a dozen people over watching the PJ. NONE have commented on rainbows, ALL have been blown away by the picture quality
     
  21. uczmeg

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    So if both myself and Peter have had a total of two dozen people that have no problems with DLP then we've either been very lucky (based on the poll results) OR does that lead to the question...

    "Did rainbows bother you before you knew about them??" ;)

    I apologise to all those who have really bad issues, or feel ill watching a DLP, it is not meant as a dig.

    But I do wonder if in a lot of cases it is a case of too much knowledge. I mean how many people on here didn't think they had any issues with lots of their equipment before coming here?

    Once you know about an issue it can easily become a problem. I know that from personal experience. It's cost me thousands of pounds in the year I've been on the forums!!!!!

    :eek:

    Cheers
    Marc
     
  22. LV426

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    In my case, I can tell you (honestly) that I'd mentally worked out that the thing I was watching MUST have had some sort of sequential colour system in it, before I actually took the trouble to read how one-chip DLPs and their colour wheels work - it was that obvious and intrusive.
     
  23. Kramer

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    Gaffer,

    At this stage I think a new poll would be better than editing this one.

    If you'd like to start a new one with your new options, I'll edit it & add the remaining options. This can then be merged but members will have to vote again.

    Adding new options now would be useless to those who've already voted.

    LMK.

    :smoke:
     
  24. G a f f e r

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