Discussion in 'Movie Forum' started by Kain, Aug 24, 2002.
Do you notice the 4% speed-up on Region 2 PAL DVDs?
Would the person who voted that they noticed it, tell me if you see it on all pal stuff or just certain bits.
Can´t say I´ve ever noticed it at all. Mind you never done a side by side comparison.
I was the first to vote yes.
I first noticed it when amassing all the ST:NG episodes on video a few years back (early 90s). Naturally most I recorded off-air, though inevitably I missed a few and had to buy the odd tape.
Picards voice sounded higher pitched on the tapes I bought - this is when I started to investigate the phenominon and found out how PAL mutilates the soundtrack of any 24fps film.
Certain movements can just seem a bit unnatural when speeded up too.
But no, in hindsight back in my 'unenlightened' days I wouldn't of watched a movie on tv and thought "I remember that as different from how it was at the cinema". But the last 12 years have been 'sonic heaven'! Just knowing that the sound is wrong is enough, without comparrison to the 'real' soundtrack.
And since I believe that a clear and accurate soundtrack is at least as necessary as clear and accurate visuals I buy movies in NTSC format.
Of course there is no right and wrong here , just opinion.
i've noticed it on some dvds - the music on City of the living dead
I ve always had a pal version till recently i got the R1 anchor bay and straight away i noticed how slow the music was on the R1 and it does sound much better. Also noticed it on some music dvds - Korn , Metallica R2's all sound slower/weirder? compared to the cds
I've just voted YES as I've recently replaced my R2 version of Magnolia with the R1 version and been in a position to compare. I listened to the Aimee Mann soundtrack that is very dominant in the opening chapter and the difference is quite noticeable.
I have to say though that I havn't got perfect pitch and without a reference it wouldn't really bother me.
I get the occasional feeling that people have taken a drag of helium. Always get R1 when given the choice.
I havent noticed before, though never really thought about it! Inevitably i will notice all the time now!
I voted "No" for the same reason as Jase - namely, that I have never done a side-by-side comparison. I'm sure that if it was material that I was familiar with that I would notice but I've only ever owned one region of a particular DVD and before that I had only ever seen PAL stuff anyway. However, I do notice it when a song is playing during a movie if I am very familiar with that song and own it on CD but this has happened so rarely which is why I voted "No."
The "3:2 pulldown" on NTSC is, in many ways, more noticeable because it does not require any side-by-side comparisons or familarity with the material to be noticed.
But having said all this, I am not bothered by 4% PAL speed up or NTSC pulldown. I do have a preference for PAL material in theory, but wouldn't necessarily pay extra for it, especially when you consider that in practice, both PAL and NTSC transfers might not be encoded optimally anyway.
A niggly point for Kain - Remember that PAL and Region 2 are not equivalent. PAL is also used for Region 4 disks and NTSC is used on Japanese Region 2 disks, for example.
I asked a musician friend if she was aware of the 4% speedup of her videos and she said it didn't really make much difference, as long as it was all consistently 4% higher pitched. It was just like playing music in a different key (unless there was a voice or sound that you were very familiar with).
If you think that directors cut to the nearest frame - 1/24 of a second - it may be that some scenes will be paced more quickly than the director would choose.
Either way, it's not as the director intended so...
Only noticed it when listening to some samples on different scenes compared to the two regions.
Bet if you put 30 seconds in between though on a blind test i'd struggle to notice the difference.
not really an issue for me, although 90% of my disks are R1 anyways....
Never noticed and probably never will.
Does it affect NTSC TV programme conversions as well as film?
Notice it mainly with songs, sometimes they seem to be faster to sound more exciting or fit the scene better.
My Sony minidisc recorder has pitch adjustment ( turntables too, yes ), if comparing certain soundtracks against CD the song may be even 10 - 15% faster or even more.
Can't agree with musician stating wouldn't be noticed if all at constant speed despite being different, easier to hear changing pitch but nonetheless if Pinky and Perky are performing I always know it's them. (Extreme example.)
Will Young / Gareth Gates of their day........Long And Winding Road is a PP cover.
I have one of their albums on vinyl, but I'd never admit to that of course.
But I much preferred the joyous sounds of Ken Dodd and the Diddymen (particularly "Where's me shirt?" - a track of pure genius).
She didn't say "wouldn't be noticed" she said "didn't really make much difference" (to be honest, I don't remember her exact words, but that was the gist). Which means that an extreme example is irrelevant, since we are talking 4%, not 200%, or whatever.
Out of interest, how accurately do record decks play 33rpm or 45rpm? Is it 33.0001? or 33.1?
Interesting topic this. Don't know if you guys are aware of it but windvd 4 actually has a feature called 'Pal True Speed' or something similarly apt, which will actually play back your pal dvd's at 24 fps. I just investigated it, and rather oddly rather than pitch shift the audio down, it actually time stretches the audio by 4%, meaning that you keep the tone of the pal dvd. Sadly in the process of time stretching it absolutely mutilates the sound, as the time stretch algorithm isn't very good- time stretching inevitably leads to echo and flanging.
This however got me thinking, as to whether pal conversion from film actually pitches up the sound or time compresses it. I'd guess it varies from film to film. It would seem bizzare windvd time stretching the audio unless a lot of films are time compressed.
****ing about on my pioneer cd decks I would say that 4% is around the limit of how far you can pitch up music without sounding like the chipmunks. A time stretch of 4% seemed perhaps just preferable.
Anyway, as for the poll i put no; I've never noticed the picture being sped up, but i have on very rare occasions noticed speech seeming a bit high pitched.
It would appear that the increase in audio pitch is somehow compensated for during conversion:
What's a record deck ?
Instrument for reproduction of recorded sound by vibrations of stylus resting in irregular spiral groove on rotating disc.
Prior to availability of Compact Disc the dominant format for music replay in the home was the gramophone.
Records, firstly Shellac before vinyl, mostly black, though colours and picture discs sometimes. Sizes 5", 10" but commonly 7" and 12", speeds 16, 78 but mostly 33 or 45rpm.
Vinyl replay is still held in high regard by audio enthusiasts even against formats such as DVD-Audio and SACD, many prefer it to CD.
Turntables are used by youngsters interested in the dance / club scene, allowing creativity.....mixing / scratching and so on.
So still popular decades since Thomas Edison delighted listeners with " Mary Had A Little Lamb".
Hope this helps.
........thats semantics, whatever.......still don't agree with her, am sure she won't mind .
It's called being accurate... And she couldn't care less - she has no interest whatsoever in the technicalities of film or music reproduction - doesn't even own a DVD player .
BTW, congratulations on your 1000th post
I did notice it on Star Trek: Generations - the bit where it all goes into slow-motion as a photon torpedo heads toward the Klingon Bird of Prey. The tension is fantastic on the NTSC ver. - on PAL it's all over a little too quickly.
A friend of mine has a Denon 5600 (I think) double CD deck.
This has pitch control and you can adjust the pitch while not changing the tone.
So you won't sound like the chipmunks, you'll just talk faster...
I guess the same principle is used for PAL speedup.
This is not the same as just pitching up 4% on a record deck (bring on the chipmunks)...
- Tom -
Yes, that's why the pitch error is corrected on PAL during conversion from film, according to that article that I posted last. I'm glad I found that article because I have only ever been able to detect increased speed in musical tracks, never increased pitch, which I always found rather odd.
Songs are definitely paced to action. I hear them running faster regardless of PAL thing.
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