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Do you get used to rainbows?

Discussion in 'Projectors, Screens & Video Processors' started by Clarky, Aug 10, 2004.

?
  1. Less frequently than at first

    12 vote(s)
    52.2%
  2. More frequently than at first

    1 vote(s)
    4.3%
  3. About the same as before

    4 vote(s)
    17.4%
  4. Go away and stop bothering me with silly polls

    6 vote(s)
    26.1%
  1. Clarky

    Clarky
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    OK,
    I recently bought an X1, very pleased with it. I was even more pleased that the rainbows I saw initially quite frequently are now almost non-existent.
    Is this a common experience? The answer could help people deciding between buying LCD/DLP (at least the cheapy ones)

    So, please have a go at the poll (only DLP-ers need answer)...
     
  2. Liam @ Prog AV

    Liam @ Prog AV
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    There was a thread and poll on this before but I can't find it now!! Anyway if you search for the term rainbow you will see quite a number of threads on the subject. I and a number of people have certainly gotten used to it the same as yourself, but some have not, or worse have seen it more now than before. It was also suggested that age and whether you wear glasses has an effect!! Wish I could find that thread now...
     
  3. Clarky

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    Well, that's the idea of the poll.
    There's lots of talk about rainbows on the forums so I'm trying to put some numbers to the categories.

    Come on....get voting. Only 2 days to go....
     
  4. Paul Williams

    Paul Williams
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    although my vote went in the 'less frequently than....' I would have used a 'not at all now' option if there was one.

    Paul
     
  5. Liam @ Prog AV

    Liam @ Prog AV
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    Threads I'm thinking of had a polls too!

    http://www.avforums.com/frame.html?http://www.avforums.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=43

    http://www.avforums.com/frame.html?http://www.avforums.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=43

    And same for polls over on AVS, unfortunately the results never teach us anything useful but the debate rages on nicely :rolleyes:
     
  6. SimonO

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    The anti-reflective lenses in my glasses really highlight rainbows... I even get a strange yellow flash over brights on my Pioneer plasma...
     
  7. Clarky

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    Well Liam, why don't you vote for the last option then?
     
  8. Liam @ Prog AV

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    Pardon??? Dunno what you've got your knickers in a twist about Clarky. All i'm trying to say is take the results of these polls with a large pinch of salt but pay attention to the real life experiences discussed since this is where you will actually learn something. I also copied in the wrong link earlier:

    http://www.avforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=128012
     
  9. Clarky

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    Party pooper
     
  10. ntslik

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    Have to agree with Liam i'm afraid, but, the results would be as useful as a fart in a spacesuit, as it will affect people in many different ways i'm not sure what good the poll would achieve, I personally would love to do something that helped customers feel a little more confident about the Rainbow issues.
     
  11. booth1976

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    Went for a demo of H30, saw 1 rainbow in the black & white sequence from Kill Bill. My friends didn't see any.

    Bought a H30, didn't see any Rainbows then BAM. I started seeing rainbows - but very few.

    However about 2 months later I don't see any rainbows apart from on very very rare occasions.

    Can't speak for other DLPs because I haven't seen any.

    For those who don't know, when a DLP pj is on, look briefly at the lens barrel (not directly inside or you'll kill your eyes) then quickly look back at the screen - you should see a rainbow.
     
  12. Clarky

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    Thank you for your considered comments.
    The poll has been done before, yes, with an unfavourable outcome -for rainbows at least. The questions in this poll are different (deliberately simpler with fewer categories) and with less spread there may be more results per category, making the outcome more robust.
    As it is going at the moment in this poll it seems that the largest trend is for people to say that they see rainbows less frequently with time (interestingly contrary to the previous poll, perhaps its the way you ask the question?). Entry level enquirers to this forum can be frightened off buying DLPs because of 'rainbow fear' so I believe it will be of use in putting a figure in for x in the following statement:
    'Yes, rainbows can settle with time, in fact in a recent poll on this forum x% said that they saw rainbows less frequently with time.'
    At the moment the advice may be 'well, y% see rainbows so go demo a machine.' Perhaps the added reassurance of knowing that a proportion of rainbow sufferers resolve with time would be helpful. The rest is up to the customer, but they may feel better informed. It's only advice, we're not trying to find the rainbow holy grail.

    All the usual limitations of such a poll apply, there is selection bias whereby people who've had a positive rainbow experience may be more likely to vote than people who've had a negative experience. Also, voters from this forum aren't exactly representative of the general population where you first pj buyer is likely to come from. In addition were unlikely to attract huge numbers of votes, which can render the results insignificant (statistically speaking). Finally, people are most likely to vote for the first option in the poll. In short, I don't think we'll get the results published in 'Nature', but hey it's a bit of fun and might help someone somewhere feel a bit more confident about their intended pj purchase. This could be considered a pilot for a larger poll.......
     
  13. Liam @ Prog AV

    Liam @ Prog AV
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    Clarky I am really not trying to whizz on your bonfire here but your statement should read "Of people who own a DLP projector x% see rainbows etc etc" which is an immediate bias for blindingly obvious reasons, those who bought an LCD aren't included. And a huge proportion of LCD buyers did so because they see rainbows... Then, there are all the other factors that will bias a poll of this nature (choice of questions, sample size, sample relevance to actual population etc)

    Rainbows aren't that big a worry and most will get used to it (which is what I preached on the last poll so I am kinda on your side Clarky!) but this poll can only confuse people through incorrect conclusions being drawn from it. I'm not knocking the discussion, just the poll :D

    :lesson: If you are considering a DLP, please do not read the figures in this poll as a % likliehood of seeing rainbows because it is not :lesson:
     
  14. Clarky

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    The outcome will be:
    Of people who own a DLP pj x% said that rainbows got better with time, y% said they got worse, z% said they were about the same and k% couldn't give a toss (and answered option four).
    Quite right, the outcome describes the change in perception of rainbows with time, not their absolute frequency and by its nature excludes LCD owners.
    Is that clear enough?
    Always good to have a pilot, helps iron out the wrinkles.... before the big one.
     
  15. theritz

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    I think the basis behind your poll is flawed............ the result is not "of people who own a DLP pj...", it's of people who voted in the poll - you don't know whether they own DLP projectors or not. The last category is not of people who "couldn't give a toss", it's people who thought the poll is silly - currently standing at 4, while 10 people say rainbows got better with time. Go figure.

    Describing the outcome of a "poll" such as this in terms of percentages creates the impression of substance where none might exist, particularly where the total number of people who take part in the poll is very small, and also where you have asked for votes from people with DLP projectors (if someone had difficulties with rainbows, it's more than likely that they would have changed to a different technology, or upgraded to a higher specification DLP projector with a higher speed wheel - the fact that this particular class of DLP owner no longer has a problem with rainbows is irrelevant from the point of view of someone considering an entry level projector, for instance).

    It appears as though this poll is attempting to establish some specious basis for saying that the rainbow effect diminshes over time. It might well do, as it has for you and others, but the effect can also be quite severe for some people.

    The advice to tell someone to go and see a demo of the projectors they're interested in is good advice because the person who is spending their money can experience at first-hand how the product performs. I wouldn't consider this poll a suitable or reliable basis for advice - there are simply too many flaws.

    BTW, I'm not trying to POYP, I'm just not happy to see someone on the forum trying to form some basis for saying something which is more than likely to be misleading.

    Sean G.
     
  16. Liam @ Prog AV

    Liam @ Prog AV
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    A person who completely doesn't get on with rainbows is not included (and cannot be unless they have extensive DLP experience through a friends system or a LOT of demos!). But the population of prospective buyers does include some who will not get on with rainbows. Therefore a prospective buyer cannot draw a conclusion from this poll. The poll tells the prospective buyer that of people that initially get on with rainbows x, y and z still do or don't. Not, of ALL people, do rainbows get better?

    Plus there is no attention drawn to whether seeing less rainbows over time is a good thing or a bad thing. There could be ten voters who all see less rainbows, but still would never have bought the thing if they new it was gonna do that!! It's just one of those things you cannot put a number on.
     
  17. theritz

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    ............ and while not wishing to labour the point...... There are about 28000 registered members on the forum, and in the Projector poll at the top of the page I did a quick tot of about 80 people indicating that they own DLP projectors (the number could be a little more or less, it's not really significant for this purpose). Your poll currently has 17 votes registered ( about 0.06% of the forum population, or 20% of the number of people who indicated ownership of a DLP projector in the "ownership" poll on the forum. So suggesting that you could derive a statement in the following terms

    is nonsense.

    I am interested to know whether you intend that such a statement could be used in a commercial environment, or whether you want to get a basis for substantiating your own experience; if it's the former, you should contact Spectre, the Admin of the forum who is responsible for all commercial matters ; if it's the latter, you could always just chime in with your own advice and personal experience when the appropriate question arises..........


    Sean G.
     
  18. Clarky

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    This is a pilot for a larger more robust study. Your comments have been insightful and are not regarded as POMP but now I welcome you to offer constructive advice on questions/formats to ask in a larger poll. Do you agree that it should be possible to address thes issues mentioned above to give more meaningful results?
    I have no vested interest in the outcome of such a poll, so efforts to make it as impartial as possible are welcome. Further it is not offered as an alternative to demo'ing a projector but simply provides more information on an important topic.
    How do we iron out the confounding factors that have been identified?
    Possible solutions: leave the poll open for longer to obtain more votes (a simple power calculation can tell how many are needed to reach significance),
    stratify by pj cost/colour wheel speed, time of ownership,
    previous intolerance of DLP technology resulting in a change to LCD,

    Do you think it is impossible and therefore should we just use the polls for questions such as 'What is your favourite colour?', can we try harder?

    Of course if no one is interested obtaining a robust answer then we needn't bother.
     
  19. Liam @ Prog AV

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    Unfortunately I do not think there is a robust answer. In fact what is the question that can be answered by a percentage? We could try to find out "Who is affected by rainbows" but even something that simple leads to there being different tolerances to the phenomenon. Polls are usefull for "how good is X product" "who bought what" "who thinks I should upgrade what" type questions, but not for rainbow related discussions - they can only be misleading, or downright incorrect.

    If you really, really wanted to carry out a rainbow study you would have to take a frickin' huge population sample and give them all DLPs for a month and measure before, during and after rainbow sufferance. You will need a huge sample because you will need several general test groups (totally random but divided over different speed colour wheels, price, resoltuions, screen size, viewing distance, amount of lighting etc) and to learn anything good quite a few specific groups such as young, middle aged and old, male and female? glasses and no, colour eyes?, IQ level etc etc all running from the same model projector. By the time the study is over 3 chip DLPs will be the norm!!!
     
  20. Clarky

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    So the answer from the retailer is no.
    theritz you are on the wrong track by implying I have a commercial interest in the outcome, it is disappointing to see you mistake genuine enthusiam for a more sinister motivation. Posters with a commercial interest are retailers.

    Goodbye and goonight
     
  21. Clarky

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    So the answer from the retailer is no.
    theritz you are on the wrong track by implying I have a commercial interest in the outcome, it is disappointing to see you mistake genuine enthusiam for a more sinister motivation. Posters with a commercial interest are called retailers.

    adieu not au revoir
     
  22. Clarky

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    So the answer from the retailer is no.
    theritz you are on the wrong track by implying I have a commercial interest in the outcome, it is disappointing to see you mistake genuine enthusiam for a more sinister motivation. Posters with a commercial interest are called retailers.

    adieu not au revoir
     
  23. theritz

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    Clarky,

    Well if something is worth saying then it's probably worth saying three times :D .

    Having read the following in one of your earlier posts:


    ....... I considered it worthwhile asking whether the poll was intended for commercial use.


    I did not intend to suggest any pejorative connotation - you are relatively new to the forum, and you might not be aware of the sensitivities of its interface with the commercial world. This forum provides decent advice to visitor and fellow member alike - technically inaccurate or misleading information will do little other than diminish the forum, and I believe that making a statement about rainbows (based on your poll) of the kind suggested in your earlier posts here would be misleading.


    My answer also, I'm afraid, is no.... I don't believe it's possible or appropriate to conduct a statistically accurate poll on a forum such as this. Polls which ask what kind of XYZ do you own or "yes/no" polls are fine for taking the "temperature" of the forum at any particular moment in time (provided anyone bothers to respond) and that's about it.




    Sean G.
     
  24. Liam @ Prog AV

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    Goodbye Clarky :hiya:


    The Retailer :clown:
     
  25. ntslik

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    Clarky goes to bed early!!, I think the hole crunch of this thread and poll, is that although I would very much appreciate any efforts made to help potential customers, the poll makes Bugger all difference to what ever the result is, if you did suffer from rainbows what difference would it make that 80%, 2% or 100% don't.

    Nice idea Clarky just not all that beneficial, oh and goodnight
     
  26. pgre

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    I just think going back over this thread that a "Fart in a spacesuit" may in some extreme circumstance be a good thing. A method of propulsion maybe if carefully vented..

    Polls are a strange thing though.. keep your eye on the sky ones.. I liked the one on "Would you quit Britain for another country?"

    Yes 74.08%
    No 25.91%

    So its going to get quite lonely in the UK.. although maybe thats what immigration is there for..

    Anyway.. I ended up going the LCD route as £, and resolution played a major part.
     
  27. booth1976

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    Blimey, the gist to the original question was - "if you have a dlp pj, do you still suffer from Rainbows?"

    And the answer for me is yes, but far less frequent. If this thread had have been going before I purchased a dlp modeul it would have reassured me. Infact all the anti-DLP bias going on on the forums made me very anti-DLP. But that was before I saw one in action and as my demo was rainbow free bar once, I purchased wondering what all the fuss was about these 'rainbows'. Just for the record not one of my mates has ever seen a rainbow, nor has my girlfriend - they think I'm winding them up infact and that it's a myth :rolleyes:

    Just enjoy whatever you have and demo (or even better, have a trial) of whatever you intend to buy.
     
  28. MikeD

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    Yeah come on guys give Clarky a break, the poll may not have been that scientific but the results would probably have interested those sitting on the DLP/LCD fence.

    I doubt anyone would have based their decision to buy purely on the results of the poll but it would have given a feel for DLP owners experiences.

    Is that such a bad thing, this used to be such a friendly place for newbies.

    Regards, MikeD
     

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