Do you feel you still have a voice in the UK?

Discussion in 'General Chat' started by raduv1, Nov 27, 2017.

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  1. raduv1

    raduv1
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    I am a 52yr old white male married to a a lovely 48yo white female . We have no children are not religious , we are in most regards nondescript in many ways . We are not racist, homophobic or ageist and care not for ones religious beliefs . We vote as is our right to do so pay our taxes and not broke any laws .

    And yet we feel like we have no voice or place in the UK to voice any opinion at all. People such as us that do speak up or out are often branded as racist etc in an easy first response to push us back into suburbia where we belong .

    We feel as such that the minority influence has a louder voice and impact than we could ever have .

    Just our feeling , yours may shed more light .
     
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  2. Doug the D

    Doug the D
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    Hi @raduv1.

    I'm in a similar position to you, except my wife and I are 10 years your wife's junior, and we have an 11yr old daughter. I don't worry so much about whether my views are deemed as homophobic or racist (I am certainly neither, I assure you), because the only people that I truly care about know what my beliefs are. Strangers may not necessarily. My ego is not so large that I care about what Facebook or Twitter think of me either.

    I guess it depends on what you mean by 'we have no voice in the UK to voice any opinion at all' - why do you believe that anyone should listen to your opinion (or indeed mine) over and above any other person's? I really do not care myself.

    I do not completely agree with your sentiment 'People such as us that do speak up or out are often branded as racist etc in an easy first response to push us back into suburbia where we belong'. I think that more often than not it's simply an incorrect application of the term 'racist' by a person too ignorant to know what the term actually means, i.e. you are not being racist, but a person that calls you out as such is just wrong in their understanding of the word imo.

    This last point is something that we're trying hard to get across to our daughter. She has clearly learned the word 'racist', but seems to apply it in all sorts of situations where it's really not a case of racism at all. For example, if I told her that all French people wore black and white striped shirts and rode bicycles around Paris with a string of onions around their neck, my daughter would state 'That's racist Dad', when the term she's after would actually be 'stereotype'*

    The world is far too big, and people are far too varied for me to be worried about whether I'm being listened to or not. I work hard, pay my bills and try to enjoy my life as best I can.

    *for the sake of clarity, this conversation between my daughter and I has never happened, it's just a flavour of similar discussions.
     
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  3. timinsingapore

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    I am British, although I have lived for several years a long way from Britain in a society that is at least as multiracial as the UK. For the sake of clarity most of my assets and my pension arrangements are in the UK, and I expect to return there, so I have a vested interest.

    I think it's true that terms associated with political correctness - 'racist', 'homophobia', 'misogynist', 'objectification' - are overused to the point of absurdity - sometimes. Sometimes but not always. Having lived outside the UK and therefore able perhaps to judge UK society with a broader perspective, I think many Brits (and probably many Americans and other nationalities as well) underestimate the freedom of opinion and expression they enjoy. Frankly, if you feel that your voice is not heard sufficiently, you are not taking full advantage of the range of views in the British press and on the BBC etc., not to mention local politics. Who is stopping you from standing for a council, or joining a political party? Don't just sit there ...

    You should try living in a country where the press and broadcast media are not free of government control, or where access to social media is restricted. I think many of my fellow countrymen don't appreciate how well off they are - both materially (most Brits don't know what real poverty is), and in other less tangible respects too.

    So I can empathise with your lament, but I think a bit more exposure to the world beyond Britain's shores might be a useful corrective.

    I won't even get into what Brexit looks like, seen from overseas ...
     
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    Last edited: Nov 28, 2017
  4. Sonic67

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    Of course we have a voice. We've just stuck two fingers up to Brussels.
     
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  5. Ruperts slippers

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  6. Astaroth

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    Speaking out will never get you branded a racist, saying racist things will get you branded a racist.

    Speak out about how the shocking way people are paid in this day and age means that most using a food bank these days are now in work and yet still reliant on handouts rather than being paid a wage they can feed themselves on. How will that get you called a racist?

    The difference between mob rule and democracy is the weighting of the minority, else a democratic vote on whats for dinner between 2 wolves and a sheep only ends one way
     
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  7. balidey

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    And those of us who did vote to leave the EU have been branded racists.
    That is in the badly misguided use of racists, as Doug The D put it.

    I think the problem is not that we have lost our voice, but that other people think their voices need to be heard louder. The trouble is, now it is so easy to make your opinion heard, no matter what your opinion is.
    Pre-twitter and facebook etc, if you thought someone was racist, bigot, etc then you told your mates down the pub, end of. Now you can start an online campaign about someone if you disagree with their thoughts.
    Middle aged, middle class, white British people, a few decades were in the vast majority and that demographic was considered the norm, or a bench mark. Now that same demographic is seen as an evil collective hell bent on destroying all other ethnic, religious, gender defined group. And do they want this? No. But who shouts loudest tends to gets heard these days. And sh*t journalism isn't helping the situation either.
     
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  8. amd mad

    amd mad
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    So when the lady was talking/speaking out to Gordon Brown about immigration and jobs was she a bigot?as Gordon suggested
     
  9. SteakAndCake

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    So you share the same ethnicity as the majority. The same religious views as the majority, and the referendum went your way too. I fail to see why you believe you are under represented in any way.
     
  10. Jezza99

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    I think the OP is expressing the frustrations of being a member of the silent majority. Often the most vocal, most strident voices heard are that of the militant left, because they have a tendency to weave politics into their life and self identification, whereas the silent majority are too busy paying the mortgage and raising their families.

    The Brexit vote has exposed the sheer arrogance of these people, they literally did not believe it possible they would lose it because they live in their vocal echo chamber, and therefore think that it's inconceivable that most people don't think the same way they do.

    Their subsequent anger and fury has been driven by the realisation that somehow the majority of people don't share their liberal views and they can't process that. Hence the dismissal of leave voters as being old, stupid, racist etc in their attempt to understand why they lost.
     
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  11. rustybin

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    I'm not sure why anyone would consider anyone else a racist or homophobic unless they went around being racist or homophobic.

    I'm a 39 year old white male. I've never been accused of either racism or homophobia.

    Not directed at the OP, but those who are paranoid about being accused of being racist / homophobic...there's usually a very good reason for that.

    To answer the question...I'm a white 39 year old male Tory....I'd say my voice is generally pretty well represented at the moment.
     
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  12. SteakAndCake

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    The demographics prove they were old, that's a point of fact not a dismissal.

    It wasn't the strongest driver of a leave vote though. The biggest driver was poverty, followed by education, and then age.
     
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  13. Astaroth

    Astaroth
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    Facts are so over rated, unless they support your cause
     
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  14. Jezza99

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    How strange. I know plenty of people who voted for Brexit, and none fit your pigeon holes.
     
  15. Astaroth

    Astaroth
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    Exactly how many of the 46,501,241 voters is your analysis based on?

    upload_2017-11-28_11-19-0.png

    Guess you are just talking to some of the 36% of older people that voted remain? Just because a stat says "most" doesnt mean no one didnt do it.
     
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  16. Jezza99

    Jezza99
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    Which is precisely my point. 46% of the 25-49 demographic voted leave, so to call leave voters "old" is not only a lazy, ill informed stereotype, it's just plain wrong.
     
  17. SteakAndCake

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    Yes, because you're talking anecdotes, and I'm talking demographics.
     
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  18. Jezza99

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    See above :p
     
  19. Astaroth

    Astaroth
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    Remember all those brexiteers saying that the vote was clearly for brexit with 52%? If a 2% margin is "clearly" and "decisively" and all those other words that are being used then a 54% stay vote, a 4% margin and twice that which is "decisive" absolutely proves without any doubt etc etc.

    Obviously one divisive element here is what do you call old? Some would say 45+ is old in which case the 25-49 band is tainted by those at the upper end of its age range
     
  20. Jezza99

    Jezza99
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    Well the definition of "old" is subjective of course. But even if you accepted that 49 was old, there is no breakdown within that sub group.

    Point is though, nowhere am I claiming a "majority". What I am saying is that a substantial number of the 25-49 group voted leave , and that a smaller number (29%) of the under 25's also voted leave .

    Therefore, the conclusion from the "demographics" clearly doesn't support the lazy, bigoted view that "it was the oldies wot won it". Without the substantial number of votes from the under 50's, Leave could not have won.

    Even the "leavers are uneducated" trope is busted , with those having A Levels split 50/50. and those between A Level and Degree actually ahead for leave at 52/48.

    It's only at Degree level that the pendulum swings substantially back to leave. You could argue that this proves that the most educated voted remain, and statistically this is correct, but what is the causal link exactly?

    I would argue that it's much more to do with those having Degrees being disproportionately in the under 25 demographic, because the number of people attending university was pushed up dramatically under Blair, so it is inevitable that Millennials will have a higher percentage of Degrees than older people.

    These Millennials have also been subject to pro EU, pro- liberal brainwashing from their teachers and lecturers, and have not had the opportunity yet for real life to influence their views.Finally, as anyone who has interviewed graduates for jobs will attest, there is definitely no correlation between Degrees held ans intelligence levels.
     
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  21. Astaroth

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    But the maths is simple, even for an old, lazy bigoted person... the majority (ie 50.1%+) did fall into the older, lower educated, lower socioeconomic groups.

    Does that mean no educated people voted for leave? No. Does that mean no old person voted for remain? No. But that doesnt change what the average person was who did vote for leave.

    You'd be better off arguing the pointlessness of statistic as a whole than trying to dispute what one case shows.
     
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  22. rancidpunk

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    This, other than being a few years difference and the unfortunately named 'floating' voter.

    Never felt my voice is unheard more than anyone else in the UK. I don't see anything other than a minority of bigots throwing around trite racist and homophobe accusations, ignoring social media tends to take care of that.
     
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  23. Sonic67

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    Also note. It's a secret ballot. No one really knows how everyone voted.
     
  24. EarthRod

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    It doesn't matter, we are all members of the voting public (those who bother to vote).

    If the voting public obtain a majority overall in a referendum then that is the result.

    Keep it simple - Occam's razor and end of story.
     
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  25. Iain42

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    I'm in a very similar situation to the OP, and completely understand what he is saying. I do however think that we have a voice, it is just that we are not shouting all the time on Twitter, Facebook, and the like.

    We have also grown up in an age where people had far more back bone. Nowadays there are so many snowflakes obsessed with political correctness, and using the "correct" language. Frankly much of it seems shallow and pointless to me, ticking whatever box they are looking to tick that week.
     
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  26. Bl4ckGryph0n

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    This ;)
     
  27. nheather

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    I've been called a racist for voting to leave plenty of times, including on AVF. And this was by people who knew very little about me other than how I voted.

    Can't see how you can call it paranoid if someone actually says it to you.

    Seems to be the stock form of act used by remainers on forums.

    Cheers,

    Nigel
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2017
  28. CooperUK

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    I live in an area where the MP will always be voted back in due to the constituency type.

    Not my political party of choice. I have contacted several times to ask questions and get standard cut and paste replies back which quote party documents.

    No...I don't feel I have a voice in the UK.
     
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  29. rustybin

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    Only you know.
     
  30. SteakAndCake

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    I've voted in every election (and referendum) since I was 18. Not once have I been on the winning side. Since my views do not align neatly with either of the two main parties, I will never have my unique political views represented and I'm ok with that.

    I don't cry about feeling I don't belong in my own country. I accept that as I age, I will feel more of a stranger in my country as judged against popular culture, social media, or any medium controlled and influenced by people of a different age, political slant, or with different interests. Things change. You either change with them or become the angry old man shouting at clouds and forwarding stupid year old memes to your kids on Facebook to support your out of date world view. Wishing for things to stay the same, to stagnate, to be comfortable, to be familiar, that's not how life works. The Victorians considered nostalgia an illness.
     
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    Last edited: Nov 28, 2017

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