Do we upgrade the current sound setup with new tv?

Discussion in 'AV Receivers & Amplifiers' started by joshh1512, Mar 10, 2013.

  1. joshh1512

    joshh1512
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    Hey guys, right we've finally gotten round to sorting out new tv etc, we currently have an lg plasma, and are thinking we're going for the LG LM860V 55inch 3D TV, now at the moment the current setup has the Sony HT-AS5 5.1 surround system, but when we went into richer sounds they had the amplifier etc full setup, now basically what I was wondering was how would our current Sony system differ to an amplifier and separate speaker system? Cause from what I gather what we currently have the amplifier / reciever is built in? And from what I'm gathering (new to this topic so been researching online) does the reciever have the amp built in, so I'd buy a reciever and then the speakers on top to plug into it?

    Sorry if this is a silly question to some but I'm pretty new to the audio side!

    Thanks

    P.S do you need a 3D ready reciever or something if you hook a 3D blu ray player up to it, or are the players built into the reciever? And again will my current Sony system be compatible with 3D?)
     
  2. dante01

    dante01
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    An AV receiver integrates the audio processing required for surround sound along with the amplification needed to power 5 to 7 speakers. You'd also need 5 to 7 speakers plus an active subwoofer in order to output 5.1 or 7.1 channel surround sound. You can purchase home cinema speaker packages that have at least 5 speakers plus an active subwoofer included. Your sources are connected to the AV receiver which also handles the video switchong so that the video signal is passed on through to a display while the audio is dealt with by the receiver. The term receiver is derrived from the radio receiver that almost all integrated AV ampliers include.

    You'd connect you Blu-ray player to the receiver via HDMI and then connect the receiver to your TV via HDMI. The player would output both digital audio and video data to the AV receiver. The receiver would process the audio and then convert it to analogue prior to amplifier it and outputting the audio to drive the speakers connected to the receiver. An additional LFE signal is also output to an active subwoofer connected to the AV receiver's sub pre out. The video data is passed through the receiver to your TV.

    A specific version of HDMI needs to be employed by an AV receiver in order for it to be able to passthrough sequential 3D as associated with 3D Blu-ray titles. All current AV receivers have the required version of HDMI that is needed for 3D and it is only the older receivers that can now not passthrough sequential 3D video.
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2013
  3. joshh1512

    joshh1512
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    Yeh since I posted I've done further research and found more out so thanks for that! I understand I'd need speakers and a sub on top of the amp, now I'm wondering at richer soy sd there are packages like you suggested but most are 5.1, now I was considering going for a 7.1 setup in which case I'd go for an Onkyo TXNR414 or 515 (any thoughts on why I should spend an extra 70 quid on th 515?) however I'm thinking, will I see a great difference between a 5.1 and 7.1 setup?

    And then onto e speakers, again richersounds sell a 5.1 package, on top of that if I chose to go for 7.1 setup do I have to get the same speakers or will I be able to choose a different pair of 2?

    So yeh, do you think I would see a noticeable difference in upgrading from the current Sony AS5 or not worthwhile?


    P.S the onkyo 414 doesn't have ups calling, but does this actually matter as the ps3 (used for 3D movies) or Xbox up scales the conten to 1080p anyway I thought?

    Edit: also if I plug an Ethernet into the onkyo, can I then share the Ethernet via all devices connected to the amp via hdmi 1.4a Ethernet cable, e.g. The TV, Xbox, ps3?
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2013
  4. dante01

    dante01
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    I'd personally suggest you consider the Denon AVR2113 over the Onkyo receivers. In fact you may be just as well catered for by the cheaper 5.1 AVR1713 if you were willing to forgo the possibility of 7.1?

    7.1 requires more space for the additional back speakers. There is a difference and many newer Blu-rays do now include 7.1 audio soundtracks, but you can play 7.1 encoded soundtracks via a 5.1 receiver. The back channels would simply be mixed down into the rear channels associated with the rear speakers. Likewise, you are not forced to utilise 7 speakers if you've a 7.1 AV receiver and can choose to simply use as few or as many speakers as a receiver is capable of powering.

    It is better to try use speakers made by the same manufacturer and from the same range throughout, but this is less important in relation to the rear and back speakers than it is in relation to the front 3 speakers. The timbre and the tonal matching of speakers helps to maintain cohesion of the audio as it whizzes around you and your room.

    Upscaling is only really relevant in terms of analogue, non HD sources. The same is true of the ability to convert said analogue sources to HDMI. This would only be of use if you actually have any video sources that lack HDMI output or that are restricted to SD video?
     
  5. joshh1512

    joshh1512
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    What's the difference between that and the onkyo then?

    Well the room is pretty simple, TV against back wall, then 3.5metre distance to TV which will be on a wall bracket, so I was assuming you'd have the sub with all the devices connected below TV, then the centre speaker again above or below TV, then the two front speakers either side of TV, or on a bracket on the wall aligned with TV... Then two more again on a bracket in the wall halfway between TV and sofa and finally two to the side of the couch? Or does that sound pret stupid and worth only going 5.1 for the room size? When you say more space for back speakers, do these actually have to b further back than the sofa?

    Difference is also with the 7.1/2 amps they have pro llz over llx (again no sure if there will be a huge difference in this?)

    And thanks for clearing that up so really it doesn't particularly matter if the amp has ups calling as the Xbox etc does that for me?
     
  6. dante01

    dante01
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    The Onkyo models you mention use a lesser version of Audyssey's room correction. There's also much debate about their reliability.


    You can find some details on the fundamentals of home theatre speaker placement here:
    Dolby Home Theater Speaker Placement and Setup Guide


    You may find this of interest relating to Pro Logic IIz:
    http://www.avforums.com/forums/av-a...gic-iiz-audessy-dsx-must-have-must-avoid.html
     
  7. joshh1512

    joshh1512
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    Thanks for the links... So basically do you suggest investing £400~ or just sticking with the current Sony AS5?

    Thanks again

    Plus just quickly looked at the llz thing, basically would I need the 7 speakers for that having the normal 5.1 layout just with an extra two pretty high up in the room?
     
  8. dante01

    dante01
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    I'd always suggest separates over Home Theatre in A Box options. I'd push you budget up to £500 though, even more if you want 7.1.

    Yes, you'd need at least 7 speakers to utilise PLIIz, a 5.1 setup plus 2 height speakers. You'd need a 9.1 receiver if wanting to utlise PLIIz in conjunction with 7.1 discrete audio.
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2013
  9. joshh1512

    joshh1512
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    Hmm we'll looking at those reviews it doesn't seem great but that was a few years back... So if I got 7 speakers would you opt for 7.1 or 5.1 and this extra effect? (I'm guessing its a choice in settings?) it sounds an awsome feature but then only if it works... I'm still yet to read about the audessy thing will feedback when I do.
     
  10. dante01

    dante01
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    You'd be forced to either locate speakers in a 5.1 configuration plus 2 height speakers at the front for PLIIz or you'd need to place the two extra speakers at the back for 7.1. It isn't simply a matter of changing modes and both requires the two extra speakers to be located in different locations, although you can have both the height speakers and back speakers connected simultaneously (9 speakers altogether) and switch between them by changing the modes if using a 7.1 receiver.


    5.1 plus PLIIz height speakers:
    [​IMG]


    Many suggest 7.1 over PLIIz because PLIIz is a pseudo effect and no audio is actually encoded with height channels, but there's a large number of Blu-ray titles encoded with discrete 7.1 audio. Many others don't bother with either and are happy enough with 5.1 given the additional space more speakers would demand.
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2013
  11. joshh1512

    joshh1512
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    I'm wondering am I maybe aiming the reciever too high spec for the speaker set I'd be going for? Really I not want to spend over 400-500, so I'd probably allow 200 tops for the speaker set ( I know that would rule out 7.1 depending on which reciever I go for etc) so I'd be looking at someting like the tannoy sfx 5.1 (at a push the tfx 5.1 if its worth the extra 50) or something like the onkyo sht528...

    So really is the reciever I'm looking at too overspecced for these kind of "budget" speakers or will I still really notice a difference?
     
  12. DwightSchrute

    DwightSchrute
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    I'm still new to this so don't take it as gospel but I was led to believe that speakers should be costing more (up to double or treble) receiver price as a rough guide, but someone will confirm or rule that as complete bs soon
     
  13. dante01

    dante01
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    Buy cheap speakers and you negate the reasoning behind spending more on the receiver. The speakers should theoretically cost at least double the price of the receiver in order to do that receiver's capabilities justice. It is not unusual for some to spend 3 to 4 times as much on a 5.1 speaker package as they spent on the receiver powering them.


    It is possible to have a reasonable sounding setup for under £500, but you would need to forgo your aspirations for 7.1:

    Denon AVR-1713

    Plus:

    Monitor Audio Vector 5.1 AV Speaker Package Black - Special Offers - Audiovisual Online - Home Cinema and Hifi Specialists


    THe speakers are much better than anything else you'll get for £300 and were originally over twice the price they are being sold for now.


    I'd suggest the same speakers with the following amp if still wanting to go 7.1 sometime in the future:

    Denon AVR-2113


    You can add 2 additional vector speakers for another £100:
    Monitor Audio Vector 10


    You may also want to buy the appropriate wall mounts for the Vector Speakers:
    Monitor Audio Wall Bracket
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2013
  14. joshh1512

    joshh1512
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    Okay done some further research, now the amp we go for will be the denon 1713 or the 2113 based on reviews and suggestions... Just need to decide if going 5.1 or 7.1. The last thing to consider is speakers, there's 3 options I've narrowed it down to, obviously the cheaper cost the better but don't want to make any compromises.

    Tannoy HTS101
    Monitor Audio AV 5.1
    Tannoy TFX 5.1

    At the moment I'm swaying towards the tfx, simply because a package for the 2113 and the speakers is £530, whereas the monitor audio and 2113 is £610 and the hts101 and 2113 is £605.

    So yeh if someone could explain which to go for an why, and if you say the monitor set, why is it worth the extra 80+ and how do they all compare?

    Thanks a lot.

    PS another option is if the monitor or hts speakers are a lot better, I could stick with just going 5.1 and get the 1713 reciever if I'm going to see vast improvements instead of say 7.1 but with the tfx setup.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2013
  15. dante01

    dante01
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    The Monitor Audio Vector AV package is a £700 speaker package reduced to clear for just £300. There's no other package at this price or below that can match or beat it! The lower frequency handling abilities will allow you to utilising the frequently recommend 80Hz crossover point while the other packages you mentioned need to use crossovers in excess of 100Hz, 10Hz higher that what would ideally be recommended before frequencies start to become directional. The sub that is include would cost you nearly as much as the entire package and more than some of the other package you mention.


    You can buy bother the Vector AV package and the AVR1713 for £510:

    Monitor Audio Vector 5.1 Black - Quantum AV

    Denon AVR1713 AV Receiver - Quantum AV


    or the Vector package and the AVR2113 for £580:

    Monitor Audio Vector 5.1 Black - Quantum AV

    Denon AVR-2113



    AS far as 7.1 goes, you will not hear vast improvements, but it is an option if you've the space to loocate the two additional speakers.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2013
  16. joshh1512

    joshh1512
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    Thanks for links, so am I correct in thinking if I get the reciever and then the monitor 5.1 set, all I will need is hdmi cables, speaker brackets, and then someone who knows how to properly position them etc yeh? ( I guess though that audessy multi eq XT sorts it exactly to where my speakers are?)

    Also out of interest, my room layout like I said is sofa against back window, (little space either side of couch) and the. 3.5m to the 55inch TV on a bracket... So would the two rear speakers go to the side of th couch or midway between TV and sofa? Also if I went 7.1 are the speakers not supposed to actually be behind the sofa where in my case they would be pretty close?
     
  17. dante01

    dante01
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    You'll also need enough speaker wire to wire the speakers up to the AV receiver from where you intend to place the speakers. The sub will require an RCA terminated coax cable so that you can connect it to the receivers sb pre out port.


    The Audyssey MulEQ XT room correction isn't really the part of the calibration setup that does the distances and speakers levels, but more of an ancillary part of that setup calibration. The first measurement you take will be in relation to speakers placement as measured from where you'll be seated while using the setup. You still need to place speakers in a way that will ensure they conform with accepted placement guidelines for a 5.1 or 7.1 setup. The placement needn't be spot on, but the closer you can get to the accepted guidlines the better.

    You may find this of interest:
    Home Theater Surround Sound Speaker Placement and Setup Guide


    The rear speakers would be best placed to the sides of your sofa rather than towards the middle of the room. They would ideally be set slighly back from your seated listening position and they'd be angled in towards the middle of the room by 90 - 110°. You have them higher than the front 3 speakers, approx your head height while standing.

    7.1 would require the back speakers to be positioned behind you, inbetween the rear speakers and at the same height as the rear speakers.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2013
  18. joshh1512

    joshh1512
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    Yeh wire etc will be sorted by the guy who fits it all through the walls,

    And so you do the audessy setup before actually mounting the speakers? I thought it came after as a setup for each speaker... But yeh that site also gives a good idea, the sofa will be pulled slightly forward anyway.

    And regards to 7.1 I don't think it's gonna work then unless we do the Dolby IIz which isn't 7.1 only making use of the extra two, I'm thinking this because if the rear speakers need to be slightly behind sofa, then the only place the 7.1 speakers can go is above the window right at the back, that would be too high I'm guessing..
     
  19. dante01

    dante01
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    You do the setup after everything is connected up and all the speakers are positioned and in their respective locations. If you decide to move the speakers after the calibration then you need to rerun the calibration again.

    I'd suggest 5.1 your best option given your room's layout. Yes, PLIIz would be an option rather than 7.1.
     
  20. joshh1512

    joshh1512
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    I see, sorry for stupid questions, so really follow the guides but Rees no exact locations for the speakers, just place the rear slightly behind sofa and at ear height when standing, then centre just below TV, (TV is slightly to the left its not central, so does he speaker need to be more central on the wall or just centre of the TV?) and then last of all the two front speakers around same position as centre speakers and same height?

    Then if I go for doly IIz they go almost on the ceiling right just above the two fronts?

    So really I'm ruling out 7.1 as its not gonna fit, so realistically should I just go for the denon 1713 and monitor 5.1 instead of the 2113 and an extra 2 monitor speakers if it doesn't actually work how it should?
     
  21. dante01

    dante01
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    Place the centre speaker central to your TVs screen and the left and right speakers equidistant from the centre to either side of it. The link I posted earlier will help give you guidance in relation to how and where to place the speakers.

    The tweeters on the front speakers should be at your head height while you are seated in the designated listening position. It will probably not be possible to attain this with the centre speaker, but try get its height as near to this as possible beneath your TV. Maybe angle the centre speaker up slightly so that its tweeter fires at your head.

    The AVR2113 also has video processing not present on the AVR1713 as well as being slighly more powerful than the AVR1713. Again, you may want to try PLIIz at some point?
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2013

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