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do all plasma`s have lip sync problems??

Discussion in 'Plasma TVs' started by SILVERBACK, Sep 22, 2002.

  1. SILVERBACK

    SILVERBACK
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    could anyone tell me what is goin on with the lip sync problems on the plasma screens i was looking at the tosh or the panasonic.i had made up my mind to get one after not buying a rptv or a tosh strata but now im seeing all this stuff about lip sync.there is no way im gonna buy a 4grand plasma then fork out for an amp that has a delay sync on it to make matters worse i have been doing loads of overtime to pay for my hc addiction lol.so please anyadvice would be great an yes i have read the threads about the prob an im not impressed :mad: i just wanna know if its all plasmas
     
  2. MattB

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    All Progressively scanned displays will delay the picture to some extent when de-interlacing. Ironically, the displays with better de-interlacers (like the Panasonics) will introduce more delay as they 'look ahead' more fields for their motion estimation.

    My system has SIL504 based deinterlacing (four field) and introduces a 3 field (60ms) delay which I can compensate out in my AV processor.

    Even with this setup I sometimes see lipsync errors, usually on $ky. This is not surprising as I used to see lipsync errors all the time when I had a simple analogue interlaced TV. :rolleyes:
     
  3. Joe Fernand

    Joe Fernand
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    Silverback

    As Matt points out pretty much as soon as you start to separate video and audio within a system and look to processing the video as a high quality signal you have to consider 'delaying' the audio.

    This is not new in the world of Home Cinema where CRT projector owners have been working with this anomaly for many years - as Matt points out his video processor has an audio delay built in.

    I may be wrong but I get the feeling that some people are more attuned to the lip sync delay than others and some set-ups are more prone to producing a delay than others - though I must say that watching SKY on an LCD TV I have at home at the minute I quite often have to reset my Digibox as the sound and picture get well out of shape.

    Lip sync delay is not something I get a lot of feedback on from our customers - a couple do notice it and usually can use there AV amp speaker set up parameters to compensate for it on wayward discs or broadcasts but on the whole not something I get too many calls about.

    Best regards

    Joe

    PS One of the boys I used to work beside in one of Edinburgh's High End HiFi boutiques! used to have life size cardboard cut out Apogee speakers and Mark Levinson (Madrigal) amps in his living room - just so he could get used to living with them while he saved up for the next twenty years to purchase a set :)
     
  4. Guest

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    I may be wrong but I get the feeling that some people are more attuned to the lip sync delay than others and some set-ups are more prone to producing a delay than others -

    I think Joe has hit the nail on the head about some notice and others dont, I was watching Sky the other day and noticed some delays on my normal TV
    So on a panel that is twice as big it will be more noticeable

    it is a thing that wont unduly worry me, and if it does I will upgrade my Amp

    I think the benifits of Plasma far outweighs the negatives,
     
  5. LV426

    LV426
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    I think there's more to it than that. I think that, if the picture arrives in your brain slightly ahead of the sound - you can cope with it and don't notice. BUT if the sound arrives in your head ahead of the picture - you can't cope and notice straight away.

    In nature, sound travels more slowly than light, so we should be accustomed to a delay (however slight) in the sound. But, sound never naturally arrives before light so we immediately notice the discrepancy

    By the way, silverback; In the nicest possible way, might I draw your attention to the following keys on your keyboard: "Shift" . ,

    Proper use of these would make your posts easier to follow.
     
  6. Dixie

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    Now that u av pointed it out I can c it 2.It seems 2 come & go 4 me on my panny and it seems only on Sky & only on BBC1.Switching channels bac &4th seems 2 help... well I think so. Ah well lifes not perfect but my panny plasma IS:)

    I think he comes from Diddybrook which is where the Diddymen went when Doddy finnished with them.
     
  7. markbuffyfan

    markbuffyfan
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    just taken part in a 50 plus posting on this same subject because i was horrified to find my 50 inch panny was like watching david bowie on top of the pops .My problem has been cured to the extent of a normal cathoderaytube set sync by purchasing a syncblaster cable from keane electronics. My wife had previously refused to watch the plasma and wanted it to go back and us get another rear proj. but she is now a happy bunny. syncblaster is rgb to vga cable and raises voltage at the input to the screen.

    ps I f you do a sise by side comparison off a second output off your sky without the cable you can see the crt tv change before the plasma on screen changes. worst channels for those looking for the problem are sky news ,vh1, and any of the bbc digital channels .
     
  8. JamesTapp

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    First post guys, be gentle with me...

    I have been looking into getting a Panasonic 37" for a while, and this forum has certainly opened my eyes to the pitfalls!

    Anyway, the SyncBlaster quotes a need for the display to support a Horizontal Frequency of 15.625KHz. This is half of what is needed to generate a progressive output. So the reason that the lip sync has gone is because you are watching a VGA interlaced signal (remember those on your 286 PC?) and the Panny is not trying to make it progressive, no?

    Manual aspect switching, lip sync issues... tell me that it is worth it...

    All the best

    James
     
  9. markbuffyfan

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    james

    I subsequently found that mu problem was compounded by using a dmr e 30 dvd recorder in the loop too .Yes it is worth it ,everyone who has beren round my house agrees with me and most if they could have afford it would have bought one.
     
  10. Nexsen

    Nexsen
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    All plasma, LCD, and DLP displays delay video and cause lip-sync error "unless" the manufacturer adds an audio delay of an equal amount but even if they do it will only help when listening to the internal speakers.

    There are several products made to correct this problem: The Felston DD340 and 540, the Primare "Delay Box", and a product from Alchemy2. The Felston and Primare have remote controls to easily change the delay. Both are much better than any av receiver I have seen since most don't allow easily changing the delay while watching as the Felston and Primare units do. Both are far better solutions than replacing your receiver to get an audio delay.
     
  11. SILVERBACK

    SILVERBACK
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    HOLY RESSURECTED THREAD BATMAN!!!!!!! lol.
     
  12. Dekim

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    Can anyone confirm if any of these options affect the quality of the audio in any way as I am considering one of the audio delay boxes as the g/f refuses to watch any films with lip synch but I dont want to compromise the audio quality!

    Cheers

    Deks
     
  13. Mep

    Mep
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    I see you found the shift key in the intervening 3 years :D
     
  14. Joe Fernand

    Joe Fernand
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    Hello Dekim

    You'll require very good hearing before you can tell if a Felston is in or out of circuit.

    As Nexsen says one advantage of the Felston over the Majority of AV Receivers is being able to make adjustments 'on the f'y' rather than having to go into a multi layer menu tree and set a pre determined delay.

    Best regards

    Joe

    PS I'm told the audio quality on a lot of the 'films' GF's refuse to view is often not that HOT anyway :)
     
  15. SILVERBACK

    SILVERBACK
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    erm,yeah :oops: :rotfl:
     
  16. Dekim

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    Thanks for the info Joe

    Deks
     
  17. Treworgey

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    Joe,

    Can you advise as to whether a Video Processor such as the iScan HD+, which corrects the audio delay according to the time taken to process the video, is any good at solving this problem? I guess if the source is out of sync it has no hope and if the panel still has to do some processing then this will affect it also? The other problem, is finding sources with digital audio also! Do you know if you can add a manual delay to these and is it per input?

    Cheers,

    Chris Williams
     
  18. Joe Fernand

    Joe Fernand
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    Hello Treworgey

    The iScanHD+ incorporates 'Precision AV LipSync™' technology and automatically applies a fixed amount of Delay to the Audio signals passing through it.

    The HD+ sets the amount of delay based on what processing is going on with the Input video signal - this ensures that Video and Audio signals that go into the HD+ 'In-sync' exit the HD+ 'In-sync'.

    There is also a user adjustable Delay if you find your screen, switcher etc add further Video Delay to the signal after it exits the HD+ - this lets you ensure your Video and Audio signal are 'In-sync' once viewed on your Display.

    Some source devices do also offer you the ability to add Audio Delay to the Output signal so that again you can ensure what you see after the Video and Audio signals have gone through your entire signal chain are 'In-sync'; Arcam incorporate this feature in the DiVA and FMJ players.

    The Felston DD540 is an ideal tool if you have Lip-Sync problems and have no way of adjusting for it in any of your system components.

    I trust that all makes sense and covers your questions.

    Best regards

    Joe
     
  19. Treworgey

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    Thanks, Joe that has answered my questions.

    I just watched Lost and the Lip sync is awful and annoys me immensely. I have tried using the audio delay feature on my amp (3805) to correct it, but it is so fiddly and I never seem to get it right. And I completely miss the programme while fiddling!

    The iscan looks like a good solution - if it works.

    Cheers,

    Chris
     
  20. MAW

    MAW
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    Treworgey, I take it you do not have a universal remote? This may sound a silly question, but in the Denon codeset for the 38 series, I believe there are 'discrete codes' for lipsync+ and -. That's kinda neat, you can adjust on the fly then.
     
  21. Treworgey

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    Thank Martin, That is useful information. I do have an early Pronto, but have never spent enought time setting it up to be useful! My previous Denon did not have discrete on/off codes that made setting up a user friendly system difficult. I must spend some time re-programming the remote - assuming I can find the software!

    Cheers,

    Chris
     
  22. MAW

    MAW
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    The file you need is on remote central, it's a setup designed for aliasing, it ain't pretty, but it does have every possible code, and a few you'd wonder why the hell they are there! The zone 2 switching is fun, we use it for P in P switching.
     
  23. Nexsen

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    The Felston DD340 and DD540 never decode the SPDIF data stream so they can not degrade audio quality. They actually store every bit in the data strteam in memory and read it back out re-creating the original SPDIF signal exactly so nothing is changed. I believe the Alchemy2 does the same thing.
    Although I don't think it matters today, I believe the Primare Delay Box decodes the SPDIF signal into I2S format and retransmits it after a delay and in the process probably loses the user data bits which are carried by SPDIF but not by I2S. I say that because Primare touts as a "feature" the fact that it can recognize CD audio at 44.1 KHz and automatically "by-pass" the delay. The only reason for doing that would be to preserve the user data that is used for CD Text if it would otherwise be lost. Currently there is no other application for the user data bits other than CD text that I know of so if I'm right and the Primare doesn't pass them in the delayed signal it would sill make no difference in audio qulaity. The only problem would be if some future application started using the user data bits.

    So "bottom line" none of these three delay units would degrade audio quality since they are all digital. There's a lot of info on lip-sync at www.felston.com and www.LipFix.com.

     
  24. samjet

    samjet
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    martin

    are these codes available via the 3805 handset? if so how do i access? and please please don't say read the manual as it does my head in:suicide:
     
  25. MAW

    MAW
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    Sam, I only RTFM cretins.... it's a good question, unfortunately the answer is no. The codeset is hex code, for Philips Pronto and similar, though if a mte had a pronto, you could then learn the code to any learning remote.
     
  26. RobbieTT

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    Is there a sure fire way to set the delay. I can never seem to get mine spot on, although the wayward Sky broadcasts don't help.

    At the moment mine is set to 2.5 frames of delay, does this sound about right given my system?

    At least you can adjust the Pioneer amp on-the-fly.

    (PS why the old old thread??)
     
  27. MAW

    MAW
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    Sadly robbie, a good proportion of the problem was there before we all had plasmas, you are just noticing it now you can see the mouths move. It's pretty variable, depending on broadcast, so you need as you say, to set it on the fly. No sure fire method, just focus on the speech and do it by eye.
     
  28. RobbieTT

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    Thanks, i'll keep messing until bordom sets in.
     
  29. Dekim

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    Thanks for the detailed reply Nexsen,

    I have made the decision to buy one as my current 8ft screen (humble ae300 projector) really shows up if theres any lipsinc problems. girl next door and Alexander spring to mind as being particurly awful. And when I take the plunge for the new plasma it should stil come in handy :thumbsup:

    Cheers

    Deks

    ps how the heck do you spell particurly ?!!
     
  30. dickst3

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    in answer to the original question, no, at least mine doesn't - I get a delay with the odd chanel but nothing major.
     

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