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DLPs at What HIfI Show 2004

Discussion in 'Televisions' started by Chris5, Nov 6, 2004.

  1. Chris5

    Chris5
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    Hi there

    I 've just seen the new Toshiba 46" and Optima Rd50 & RD65 at the show at Novetel Hammersmith. Every one was showing stuff running of PCs so it was difficult to do a 'realworld' evaluation, the pictures were very jerky and not very smooth flowing, I put this down to the pc hard disks not supplying continuious data streams and not the dlp tv's but I could be wrong.

    Interestingly the Toshiba rep, and indeed the brochures claim that the tosh dlp has only 6 colour segments on the dlp colour wheel which means (if true) that the toshiba is not using the new TI '+' chipset, but the old non '+' one, as in the axuim. also when the tosh was playing a dvd from a dvd player the chrominance and luminance did not aline (like YC/s-vhs signal connection) but the rep swears blind that the dvd player was connected using component signal. this could be a nasty bug with the new toshibas, so watch out.

    The Optima stand was only playing the usual hidef test disks and no dvd film (when asked,the rep sited the public broadcast issue for not showing films, but this has not stopped other stands from showing dvds in the past) however the dvd player connected to the RD50 was a pioneer connected by HDMI, so us 868 owners should not worry.

    the RD65 (via hidef juddery pc connection) looked very good, perhaps not quite as bright as the RD50, but better that any plasma at that size

    the main thing that stands out about these new DLPs is how dynamically bright they are in comparison to plasmas, making the panasonic plasma pictures dull in comparison.

    I asked the very knowlegable optima rep about whether the axium bugs have been ironed out for the new range, He claimed they had because these sets were designed for the UK market, where as the axiums were for the French market that have different scart controlling signals etc.

    I then went on to Harrods and saw the Samsung DLP and this looked awful (no contrast range and very sensative to viewing angles) compared to the Tosh and the Optimas I had just seen.

    To sum up, for me the jury is still out (because of the 'Jerk-o-Vision' effects) until I can properly dem one, but then they are half the price of a comparable sized plasma.

    Hope this helps

    Chris
     
  2. Demon

    Demon
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    wow.. nice to see these sets are actually out in the field..

    Re the Tosh.. It defo uses the HD2+, there are many arguments over the use of 6 or 7 segment wheels, with the argument favouring 6 colour wheels for less rainbow's, and 7 segments for better definition, but its all a bit hypothetical, since there are many ways you can use 6 or 7 colour wheels, and you really need to judge each sets on its merits.. Someone on the production line told me the set used 2 * 3 Colour wheels.. which sounds really weird.. and I can only put that comment down to over enthusiasm for the new set.. or perhaps its some different implementation???

    Sad that Toshiba would demo a set with a visible fault.. If they have one of the first off the line pre-production engineering sets, then this won't be a fair example.. and shouldn't have been shown, like you say... until I see one in the flesh, I will reserve judgement..
     
  3. Chris5

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    I suspect '2*3' is just the technical name for the type of wheel used, one that has RGB sectors twice e.g RGBRGB, i doubt they have actually 2 seperate wheels.
     
  4. TonyA

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    Shame, I couldn't make it to the show this weekend.

    Would have liked to have gone to see the DLP's, but by the sounds of it, it wasn't the best of places to go see them.

    It wont be long now before "local" retailers get the sets in, and will be able to demo them properly in real life situations e.g. with a Freeview, or Sky digital feed, or with DVD playback.

    This is what I want to see, and will swing it for me if I get one.

    There's no use for me to spend 2K on a new TV if it's worse watching a source from a Sky+ box, than my existing setup.

    Hoping that that there will be some Optoma ThemeScene retailers in the London area that I can visit, and "play" for a while, before making my mind up.

    If anyone knows of such a retailer, please let me know!

    Thanks.
     
  5. AV Junky

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    It's been said on another thread that Sevenoaks are going to be the principal retailer for the new Optoma sets, so your in luck living in London.
     
  6. TonyA

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    Thanks for the info AV Junky...

    I see that they have recently opened a new store in Ealing - which is on my door-step (almost), so will contact them for further info.

    Thanks again.

    :thumbsup:
     
  7. soni

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  8. Chris5

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    Hi Soni,

    Demon covered the wheel aspect quite well, but to summarize, the Tosh should suffer less from the 'Rainbow effect' that DLP technology is prone to than the Optima, (although I have never seen this, so can not comment further).

    However the optima, because it has an extra dark green segment, should not suffer from dithering patterns, you know.. the dark green dots that the plasma guys complain about from time to time.
     
  9. soni

    soni
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    Thanks for your reply Chris. But what is meant by 'the chrominance and luminance did not aline (like YC/s-vhs signal connection)'? Is this a problem or is it a quality? If it is a problem, can it be rectified?
     
  10. Chris5

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    chrominance = colour
    luminance = black & wihite image

    i.e the colours where offset to the right (by a small but very visable amount) of the picture. don't worry to much about this. i'm sure it will all come out alright in the wash
     
  11. Krishna

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    Excellent findings, Chris5, and nice replies, Demon.
    Here's my 2pennies' worth (btw I'm based in London)....

    1. Toshiba's 46inch DLP model for the UK (and US for that matter) DEFINITELY used a SIX-segment wheel - I have confirmation from their Plymouth factory's top TV guy!! But as pointed out, don't assume a 7-segment will be better - as in practice, like the guys above have said, it's down to the visual opinion - trust me - I've seen the Tosh 46inch in action - and black levels are good.... but then so are the Optoma's - and that also uses a 6-segment baby...
    2. Optoma's set rocks ass too - but then so does the Samsung 46L3 (which uses a 7segment wheel - just FYI guys).

    TonyA - and anyone else in the London/M25 area....give me a shout/reply to this if you wanna get hold of an Optoma RD50 - might be able to help out...
    Good night, all!
     
  12. soni

    soni
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    Krishna: As you have had the opportunity of seeing most of the DLP sets, what one would be your choice out of the Tosh 46", Sagem 50", Optoma RD50, and the Samsung 46"?
     
  13. AndoverRed

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    Comet had a Samsung SP50L3HX DLP set on display. Most impressive. Better than the plasma's and LCD's on display, including Sony, Panasonic, and Pioneer models.

    This technology looks very interesting. I particularly like the look of the Optoma RD50, currently available from HiFiBitz for £1,995 (without stand).

    Very interested to hear/view your comments when the Optoma is released.
     
  14. Krishna

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    Soni (and everyone else)
    In reply to the question concerning my preference having seen the Samsung 46L3HX, the 50L7 (with the built in pedestal), the Optoma RD50, and the Tosh....

    I'd say the Samsung 46L3HX/50L3HX and the Optoma RD50 are ahead of the Tosh. There are a numbere of reasons why, but I don't want to sound like I'm deriding Tosh. But I can honestly say that Sammy and Optoma have got their acts together...
    PS. Don't say a bad word about the TI HD3 chip inside the Samsung - because it uses SmoothPicture and DarkChip2 technology (i had this confirmed from Korea), your whole picture looks a lot smoother and natural - like some top-end Plasmas (but better, in terms of contrast, vividness and natural-ness of colors)...... the HD2+ picture on the Tosh by contrast, is somewhat "computer-like" and forced...
     
  15. Krishna

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    Question for ANDOVERRED

    "Comet had a Samsung SP50L3HX DLP set on display. Most impressive. Better than the plasma's and LCD's on display, including Sony, Panasonic, and Pioneer models."

    Which Comet had a SP50L3 ??? I've only ever seen the SP50L7 (the pedestal "useless to store any kit underneath") model at Comet/Currys.....
    Is it in London?
     
  16. TonyA

    TonyA
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    After weeks of hoping that I might get to see an Optoma by now, today I walked into Sevenoaks in Ealing, and my eyes went straight to the Panasonic Viera Plasma TH42PE30B.

    I was totally gob-smacked by the picture - it was the best Plasma pic I've seen by far, and boy, what a sexy looking set too! They've got it and the stand, for around the same price as the Optoma 50" plus stand.

    I really need to see an Optoma in the flesh now to gauge this.

    I was in the viewing room, and did notice some rainbow effects from a DLP projector they were demo-ing - so I could be one of those people are unlucky enough to see the rainbows - so now this is starting to play on my mind.

    DLP with rainbows - Plasma with "burn-in" issues.

    RD50 with HDMI - Viera without!

    etc... etc...

    Arghghghghg!!!!

    I really don't know which was to go now. This is so frustrating!
     
  17. Chris5

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    Tony, don't forget that you probably wont be able to watch sky HD through the panasonic because it does not have a digital out

    Also re rainbows effects. these new DLP TVs should suffer a lot less rainbow effect than any projector that Comet is showing.
     
  18. nigel_williams

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    My eyes are sensitive to the DLP rainbow, and I saw many projectors at the show with this problem. Couldn't detect any rainbow effect on the SIM2 and Sagem DLP TVs though.
     
  19. Liam @ Prog AV

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    TonyA - Optoma RD50s are not with Optoma UK until next Monday so you won't find anything on display until later next week sometime. If you do go plasma then consider Panasonic monitors as well as the TVs, monitors don't give teletext and speakers but do give a much cleaner picture. Still, DLP RPTV now gives much more bang for the buck IMO so you might wanna hold off on any impulsive purchasing for a few more days...

    Chris5 - Sky HD boxes will very likely use analogue component as well as digital outputs. Although to be compatible with digital, DVI w/HDCP or HDMI is required (so products as new as Sagems Axium, Pioneers MXE1 plasma etc will not work digitally with HD broadcasts!). However I often find that some customers will prefer a particular model even if it is limited in digital inputs purely because that image is what they want.
     
  20. ddlooping

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    Hi all. :)

    :offtopic: Liam, you say the Panasonic monitors have a cleaner picture than the consumer models.
    Do they also have less color-banding?
     
  21. Liam @ Prog AV

    Liam @ Prog AV
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    They are the same SD panels, but the input processing of the Vieras is much the same as the old TV tuner (and using the scart board on the current monitors) - soft, grainy and lacking the expected punch (even fed component, even fed prog scan component!). There are also minimal adjustment controls to try and get the best out of it. The monitors don't have this unless you are inputting via the scart board, they also have more control over the image.

    Colour banding is a factor for both TV and monitor in 42" and 37" version since it is down to the glass used. However HD panels (42" XGA and 50", Viera and Monitor) are much less prone to colour banding as they still use the better single-scan technique to draw the image on the panel.
     
  22. ddlooping

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    Thanks for the prompt reply. :smashin:

    If I understand correctly, even a monitor (unless HD panel) wouldn't show a noticeable improvement over a consumer model if its scart input was used.
    Unfortunately, using anything but a scart connection would bump the overal price of using a monitor too high for me right now.
    Even with the excellent deals on the Panasonic 42PWD6 available.

    Oh well, it's back to CRT I guess. :zonked:
     
  23. Liam @ Prog AV

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    Sorry I'll explain a little more. The Panasonic scart terminal specifically (within the Viera or installed into a monitor) adds this annoying softness to the image. Shame, but there are plenty of ways round it if you've got the knowhow ;) e.g. JS Technology box (same cost as scart terminal). But essentially yes you do need to spend more money on a plasma to get a decent picture. Having panels under £2000 is all well and good, but if that is your absolute limit on budget you will not have enough left over to get the picture to even start looking as good as something like the RD50 let alone get yourself cables, converters, mounting, tuner etc.

    To answer your question a Viera running RGB scart compared to a PW7 running RGB scart would be close because they both have the disadvantage of the scart processing. However I would still expect the panel to outperform since there are more adjustments available to get the right colour/contrast balance. Change PW7 to a PHW7 and you gain pixels and lose some colour banding!
     
  24. ddlooping

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  25. Liam @ Prog AV

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    I think 8ft away is pretty much the borderline point for the average consumer for a 50" display. Some do prefer small screen material to not be blown up too much as it can be weird to watch, while others will happily sit 6ft away from a 50" screen! I'd take a tape measure into currys and sit/stand 8ft from a Sagem and flick around the channels a bit and see if you think shrinking the image will be required.

    For me dads place the main seating is 12ft but the secondary seating is gonna be more like 4ft from an RD50.... he's still deciding as to whether we go 50" RPTV or 50" plasma. A plasma would be an extra foot back (replacing a current 42 which is now deemed far too small!) meaning someone will still be 5ft away but it's acceptable in this case, just costs a lot more!
     
  26. mfairclough

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    Can anybody who has an Axium or other 50" display tell me what is the minimum viewing distance for watching both DVD and Sky. I've got the similar Optoma RD50 on order but am a bit worried that it will be too big for my room (28ft long 12ft wide). I'll be watching the TV from 2 possible positions, the first is 8 ft away and the second is 12ft.

    I'm also a bit worried that watching such a large screen from the above distances for several hours i.e. will it be too overpowering, could this cause headaches etc. I'm upgrading from a standard 29" Panasonic screen and would be interested to hear from anyone else who has upgraded in a similar way and who views from a similar distance.

    Any help would be greatly appreciated as I'm split 50/50 on whether I should cancel my order.
     
  27. welsh113

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    hi i have the thomson 50 inch dlp (till nov 15th anyways) and we watch it from anywhere from 4 ft to 10ft away and both the kids mother and father inlaw and wife :suicide: all love it and no one complains about anything other then how small the 42 inch plasma in the bach room looks compared to it :laugh: hope this helps as i have the same dilema
     
  28. mfairclough

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    Ok, thanks for the info
     

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