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DLP vs LCD

Discussion in 'Projectors, Screens & Video Processors' started by Amelia, Jul 12, 2002.

  1. Amelia

    Amelia
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    I wanted to know some of the Advantages and Disadvantages of both LCD and DLP. I know DLP uses Mirrors etc, but I was more interested in the issue of reliability.

    For example I know one of the Problems with LCD is dead pixels, does DLP have any issues like dropping pixels?

    Thanks
    Amelia
     
  2. Guest

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    Cant say much here as I'm not an expert, but the benefits of LCD are its brightness and its relatively low price. DLP give (on average) a better quality picture, and (the Beng your looking at is a big exception) are usually much more expensive.

    One thing you'll have to look out for is a rainbows effect on the DLP image, caused by the way DLP works and can give many people headaches. I've never seen it before myself, but maybe someone else can explain it for you?
     
  3. Amelia

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    Thanks adidajnz,

    Early this year I decided on buying an LCD projector and I have finally got around to it.

    I guess the problem started when I was told there was a new projector released (Benq) and it was a DLP for $6000. The problem got worse when I saw it perform and just when you thought things couldn't get more confusing, it turns out I can buy it for $3900 (only $100 more than the AE100).

    The problem is I don't know much about DLP. I mean do they drop pixels too?

    Regards
    Amelia
     
  4. jrwood

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    It also depends how much you want to spend, I believe DLP comes into its own when you want to spend say > £5000 although Im not completely up to date with the latest DLP prices. I've seen a DLP in action and was not that impressed to be honest and this was from a projector costing 4 times what I paid for my budget Sony CX1 LCD projector.

    Anyway to summarise DLP vs LCD

    LCD produces colours better than DLP
    LCD is usually brighter than DLP
    LCD is usually sharper than DLP
    LCD suffers from screendoor, DLP does not from what I could see.
    LCD suffers from dust blobs and dead pixels

    DLP produces a more 'film' like image
    DLP does not suffer dead pixels, it is very rare for a mirror in a DLP projector to fail and most manufacturers see this as a fault.
    DLP is not as bright as most equivalent LCD projectors
    DLP suffers from motion artifacts due to spinning colour wheel
    DLP suffers from rainbow effect, on the projector I saw it was not noticeable however if I moved my eyes around the screen then I did see them for like 1/2 a second.
    DLP has known to cause some people a headache or eyestrain compared to other technologies. I think is probably more associated with people accepting rainbow effect, people who dont see the rainbow effect should'nt really get a headache..
    DLP has better blacks, although from my own observation this is open to debate as my LCD projector certainly had better blacks than the DLP I had on loan, though thats probably because I have tweaked the hell out of it.
    Im not completely sure but I think DLP's are usually louder than equivalent LCD's projectors but not totally sure about this fact.

    I personally would probably go for DLP if I looked at the Sharp 9000 because I have heard great things about it, although in the current market I dont plan to spend a lot of money on a new projector as Im very happy with my current LCD and plan to sit tight and wait for whats coming in the next year!.
     
  5. Amelia

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    jrwood,

    Well what can I say. . . . . Firstly thanks for the informative reply and more importantly, for keeping it simply.

    Do you mind if I ask you how long you have had your Sony CX1 LCD projector and how many hours you have clocked up on it? Has it dropped many pixels if at all?

    I don't know if this is a stupid question, but is almost a certainty that if I buy the AE100 it will begin dropping pixels and progressively get worse?

    Is it possible for a projector to do many hours (ie 10,000 hours or more) and still perform well without pixels dropping?

    I guess the question I should be asking, is how long (in hours) should I expect the AE100 or any other LCD projector to last.

    Best Regards
    Amelia
     
  6. JIMAKROS

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    Theoreticaly dead pixels are a production problem and should not get worse with time but each company considers 'acceptable" some number of dead pixels to begin with.
    If your unit has more you should return it and get another one.
    This means that your dealer and the company that makes the projector should be reliable.Some brands have a better reputation than others.The time factor has more to do with the lamp which has to be replaced and many times is rather expensive.
     
  7. docsmith2k1

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    I've got to say I totally disagree with jrwood with regards to your pros and cons list., and before you ask yes I am a DLP owner, however to say that LCDs are brighter produce better colours and a sharper image than DLP is ridiculous, also motion artefacts are not an issue. The "rainbow effect", colour fringing around spectral highlights is an issue with some PJs in some people. Otherwise you will not be disappointed with a well setup DLP. They are on the whole more expensive than LCD, but deals can be had.
    The Sim2 DLP have a 6000 hr bulb life, and can develop "dead" pixels although this seems less of a problem than with LCDs.
    To be honest Amelia - the only way to know which you prefer, and which you can live with is an extended demo. On a forum like this you are bound to get both pro and con. I expect the next post to be Bert Coules extoling the AE100 (if he's got it back from repair yet):D
     
  8. DVDcake

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    Just read this thread and I agree with the Doc. The only true way to decide is to view both PJs preferably side by side and buy the one you like best.
     
  9. Paul D

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    Doc, i wouldn't say jrwood was totally wrong with his pros and cons list.
    As you said peoples views depend on what projectors they have seen.

    My experiences up to now have been...

    LCDs "are" on average brighter, this being a throwback to their presentation origins.(The average HC LCD is about 1000 lumens and the average HC DLP is 700-800 lumens)
    Plus saturation of colours can be better on LCDs(some times "too" saturated), but newer DLPs are getting better with deeper reds etc.

    I agree single panel DLPs should be sharper than than three panel LCDs due to slight panel alignment differences etc. But i have found it's how each projector proccesses the video signal that determines how sharp the final picture looks.

    I suffer from the DLP rainbow effect, but the Sim200DM i viewed was fine, so the newer Sim300 and Sharp9000 should be excellent in this respect. I feel that my next PJ may be a DLP unit, or if they can sort out the LCOS PJs one of them. I rate DLPs over LCDs on overall quality but you have to spend a lot more for the quality DLPs. Where as LCDs can give a vgood picture for peanuts!.

    I own a Barcodata 808s CRT, but have been playing around with a Panny AE100 which i will install soon for a friend. I have found this PJ to be well worth the very small price tag (£1250).
    I think this PJ should be applauded for getting peoples toes into the projector market for very little cash.
    But i think it has been over hyped, with people buying one and thinking they are going to get a near perfect image. LCDs and DLP are a compromise at the moment with only CRTs giving a totally transparent picture in my opinion!. Please don't think i'm saying CRTs give the "best" picture "blah blah" etc, but they have a image that is free from fixed panels "structure" giving a fluid image.
    Getting back to the AE100!, it's that it does give a similar image to PJ's costing two to three times as much making it a bargain. But it has a low resolution panel, so Pal signals have to be "down converted" to 480 lines. I did a back to back comparison(two screens) with a higher resolution Tosh MT7, and found it left the AE100 looking a little fuzzy on detail levels. Plus screendoor, although reduced limits how large (or how close) you can go etc. I have tried a HTPC through the AE100 and it really does make a difference to detail levels, leaving Svideo looking very fuzzy!.

    I have spent the last two years taking every opportunity to demo all types of projectors, and have come to a few conclusions.

    All types can suffer from fan noise, some are better than others.

    Excluding faulty units...

    LCD:-
    Pros
    CHEAP!, Easy to setup, Great colours, Brightness, High detail on High resolution panels.
    Cons
    Black level, Screendoor, Dead pixels.

    DLP:-
    Pros
    Reduced screendoor on higher res models plus high detail, Easy to setup, black level (inc contrast) improving, Colour on newest models
    Cons
    Rainbows on older models, Colour on some models, wheel whine, Price.

    CRT:-
    Pros
    Zero screendoor, Total Black level, High contast, High detail, Transparent picture quality, Very cheap second hand.
    Cons
    New models high cost, Needs pro setting up, needs a scaler/HTPC for best results, MASSIVE!, Can suffer from halo-ing around bright object in dark scenes, can need recalibrating now and again.

    SO pays your money and takes your pick!;)
     
  10. jrwood

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    I've had the Sony CX1 projector for nearly a year now, I've clocked up about 400 hours on it so far and it has zero dead pixels although I must admit I am probably lucky in that department. Although there used to be quite a few CX1 owners last year here so maybe they can tell you how many dead pixels have appeared on theres. For my first projector I am very pleased with it in all aspects, the only thing I would change is the 36db noise but like I've said elsewhere my room is rather large and it sits at the back of the room.

    I think you need to decide on this yourself and craft your own opinion from other AE100 users. I personally am very happy with Sony myself, I totally agree that the contrast ratios on Sony projectors suck big time until you find the magic factory/service menu and tweak it properly and use black velvet for a 16:9 screen (grey helps a lot). Im thinking of upgrading to the Sony 12HT but it depends on what price it comes out at. I personally think spending >£2500 on a projector at the moment is a bit silly as the market is picking up pace and is changing rapidly. Im glad that panasonic have taken the brave leap into the consumer projector market and I hope Sony follow likewise in their prices!.

    One thing to bear in mind is that the AE100 might be suffering from cost cutting to make it so affordable, if you compare my projector it still retails at £2000 on a lot of UK websites even though I bought it brand new for £1299 a year ago and it retailed 15 months ago for about £2700?, as you can see projector prices do not stay still. However if I had £1300 to spend today I would definetly try out the panasonic mainly because of its quietness, although I must admit that the CX1 XGA panel is rather nice.

    I know what your getting at, and I was the same when I was thinking of getting a projector. At first we wanted a large screen TV and looked at all the rear projection TV's from about £1500-£2500 and in the end we were not happy with the quality of the picture. In the end a friend suggested a projector and Im glad I made the right choice!. However when you first look at projectors you think to yourself.. only 2000 hours lamp life?!!! or in the panasonics case 5000 hours?!. Well we've used the projector A LOT! and Im quite surprised how hard it is to rack up the hours on projectors. We use it for DVD viewing and any films on cable TV and they look stunning. When you think that most films are 2 hours long then that equates to 200 films although we also watch wildlife programs on the projector too :D

    So I would not worry about lamp life or LCD panel life imho. In 2 to 4 years time you will be able to get the best projector for £2000 hopefully anyway which will make you want to upgrade!.

    Regards,
    James
     
  11. jrwood

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    Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Im just saying that I was very surprised when I tested our a brand new DLP projector we received at work, which I had the pleasure of making sure it was perfect before we let people book it out at work. I was expecting deeper blacks from the DLP, a much brighter picture considering this DLP was rated at 1100 lumens compared to my LCD Sony which is only 550 lumens (thats twice..). I would say the DLP at 1100 lumens side by side with my Sony LCD was probably 10% brighter. Recently we got another make of DLP projector which exhibited the same lumen differences between it and my Sony LCD at home although it did finally have decent blacks to be proud of. Im just saying what I saw with my own eyes :).

    To me it was quite obvious that the LCD created a far sharper image than the DLP's, and yes I could see motion artifacts on 'Fast and Furious' and Deep Blue sea but then I have very good eye sight so like you say it does come down to individual preference. I still maintain for anything under £5000 then I would go with a LCD coupled with grey screen, otherwise I would choose DLP probably.

    Also http://www.avsforum.com have a lot of DLP owners and it was very interesting to see one of their polls about 'do you see rainbows' and there was definetly a majority who did see them.

    The only way I would buy a projector though is to test it first, I personally would only try and get an wide-XGA projector for <£2000 with 600:1 contrast ratio and <30db noise. Such a thing does not exist so I will wait until it comes out :D

    Regards,
    James
     
  12. jrwood

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  13. docsmith2k1

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    jrwood,

    Your absolutely right the HT300 cost me 8k with a ceiling bracket and the optional switching box - allowing me to have a single cable going to the PJ. But the HT200 can be got for 3.5k at present - and unless you are a rainbow sufferer - is a bit of a bargain. (By the way the only DLP I've seen serious rainbows on was the Yamaha X-1).
    I have also been impressed with the Sony LCDs, and of course the CRTs (but personally I don't have the space). I don't decry LCDs at all although it would seem to be a technology that has reached its zenith, and as a consequence is now looking for a wider market through aggressive pricing. However I was pointing out that not all your LCD pros where DLP cons - if ya know what I mean.
    Pick your budget range; try to get EXTENDED demos - ideally with material you are familiar with, on an optimised setup. Then make your purchase. When you've been used to watching on a 28" screen every PJ looks awesome at first so to be truly objective take a long and critical look.
    AndyS:)
    Your right by the way excellent article - though I think these two technologies are pretty close right now and DLP remains in its infancy.
     
  14. jrwood

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    Yep all I wanted to put accross was that DLP is the way to go if you have a lot of money to spend, otherwise LCD is best unless you have a dedicated blacked out room and therefore should go the CRT route :)

    Think that sums it up!. I heard the HT200 is a great DLP projector along with the LT150? but they suffer from terrible rainbows unfortunately. Like you say some people dont suffer from them but Im the kind of person who would never risk spending £2000 let a lone anything more on a device which may give me headaches or show me those funny rainbows :). At least the DLP manufacturers are now using higher speed wheels or whatever the technology is which stops the rainbow effect :)

    by the way did you demo the Sharp 9000 against the HT300 when you bought it?, Im interested to hear your views on which one is the best DLP.
     
  15. docsmith2k1

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    Yes I did although not side by side. I felt the Sharp was quieter ( there is significant but not intrusive (IMHO) whine from the colour wheel on the HT300, but the colours where more vibrant with realistic skin tones and excellent blacks. I believe this is down to the filters in the colour wheel. ( Ultimately as the colour image is generated via the colour wheel this determines the colours you see on the screen). It was a close thing, and I could have been very happy with either. On balance though the HT300 blows me away whenever I power it up. I can heartily recommend it.
    AndyS
     
  16. Amelia

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    Well what can I say to all of you . . . except THANK YOU.

    Its 8:53am Saturday morning here and shops are about to open. So I am all set to go :D

    In my price range I have decided on the AE100 as opposed to the Benq, purely because its a new brand, and I don't know how long they will be around for.

    Thanks again for all you help guys :D

    Best Regards
    Amelia
     
  17. Guest

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    Unless you have lots and lots of money to spend on a expensive DLP I'd go LCD, the picture is way better, in particular the colours, cheap-medium DLP's have really terrible colours, and the rainbow effect is a big minus if you have guests over and 1 in 10 are going to feel sick from watching your PJ! Plus the low lumens doesn't help either. All up LCD is the more verstile format, the only negative I see is the screendoor but that is minor compared to the above DLP problems I feel.
     
  18. Russ

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    hi Jrwood,

    8k for the HT300, bracket and connection box is very good - how did you manage that ?

    Also, what finally made you choose the HT300 if (as you said) colours were a bit better (to you) and there is less noise ?

    Thanks
     
  19. Russ

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    hi,
    8k for the HT300, bracket and connection box is very good - how did you manage that ?

    Also, what finally made you choose the HT300 if (as you said) colours were a bit better (to you) and there is less noise ?

    Thanks
     
  20. Amelia

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    fulabeer,

    I just checked out your Theatre room . . . . . . and I thought picking a projector was the hard part :eek:

    It looks AWESOME !!!

    Regards
    Amelia
     
  21. docsmith2k1

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    Russ,

    'Twas I that posted about the HT300, and I said that there was significant but (IMHO) unobtrusive, whine from the colour wheel. At least at normal listening levels. But I am prepared to live with this compromise for the outstanding picture quality. All PJ's are a compromise. CRT great image but huge and low light output, LCD affordable and compact with good light output, but screendoor problems and less than perfect blacks, DLP clear sharp bright image with perfect geometry and excellent colour saturation, but rainbows, relatively expensive, some fan noise. If there was a single perfect solution we would all buy that one and spend our time watching it instead of talking about it in forums:D
    By the way I paid 8K to an installer for the equipment and the installation. I turned up a second hand HT300 (demo model with only 80hrs bulb life) for 8K on the internet,projectors r us, and my installer agreed to match this price. Niiiice.
    AndyS
     
  22. Russ

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    DocSmith21

    Sorry for getting your identity wrong !

    Good answer ! and it looks like you found a real bargain.
    Thanks
     
  23. Dick Scratcher

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    Is it me or is this whole 'screen door' thing on LCD's getting blown out of proportion? I have an 11HT (without CC filter at the mo) approx. 13' away from a Stewart Grayhawk, I sit about 12' from the screen. Guess what? No screen door? Not unless I stand (sit?) about 5' from the screen which would be barmy.

    So, great colours, nice bright image, no screen door, cheap. Er...that just leaves contrast which admittedly is a nuisance at times. I'll be checking out a CC30R and CC40R filter to help matters and get Gordon to do his ISF stuff again. Gotta be an improvement.

    Amelia, a decent demo of the panny will easily highlight the contrast issue that plagues LCD but you've got to offset this against the low cost of the PJ in the first place. The 11HT is probably at the top of the LCD pile right now and will offer great performance at a price. With tweaking the contrast can be improved greatly and still at a fraction of the cost of an equivalent DLP setup. DLP will eventually have its day but as far as the cost issue goes it isn't yet.

    I am greatly interested in the next generation of DLP's and the eventual emergence of affordable 3-mirror devices which should finally put the nail in the coffin of LCD.
     
  24. Paul D

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    Amelia, thanks for the compliment :)

    Dick S, i agree that on the Sony VW series screen door is just not an issue from about eight foot back on an 7 foot wide screen. In fact, i don't think people realise just how good the VW series are etc. Most people seem to write LCD off, without actually seeing one properly setup. The ONLY problem i had with my VW10HT was the poor black level. If they could crack the black level problem , and use a smaller "gap level" panel like the AE100 and Epsom projectors, LCDs could close the gap on the DLP and LCOS PJs.

    I still await the chance to see a decent LCOS projector, the JVC dila is the only one i have seen. But the contrast and black levels where poor, plus the fan noise was a joke.

    I have heard the rumours that there are new projectors coming out from all camps before christmas (like every year!), that improve on all fronts. So i look forward to having the chance to demo them all, and i promise to post my unbiased opinion on this forum!!!:D
     
  25. Dick Scratcher

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    All,

    I was watching the Criterion edition of Armageddon last night and had my trusty digital camera to hand so I thought I took the opportunity to take some contrasty piccies to illustrate how well LCD (the 11HT at least) can reproduce an image. Note that, in my opinion, this disc is OK as far as image quality goes, not bad but not brilliant either and not anamorphic. The forums are awash with Gladiator and Fifth Element screenshots but I thought it would be interesting to take photos of an average-to-good transfer.

    I have no control over the exposure settings of the camera so what you have are mostly photographs showing a slightly better than real-life black level, conversely some shadow detail has been lost. Geddon 8 shows the black bars just visible at the top and bottom of the image, this is a fair representation of the actual black level. The other photo's don't show the bars which gives the impression of a better level of black.

    These images are therefore very subjective but they give a fair indication of brightness, colour and complete absence of screen door, the photo's were taken from about 6' from the screen so that I could fill the frame. In terms of image sharpness and clarity they are not bad, as I said before I don't consider this disc to be the best for showing off image quality but as an average it ain't bad.

    Equipment used is a Toshiba SD900E feeding a progressive signal via component leads (Qudos) to an ISF calibrated (good old Gordon) Sony VW11HT projecting the image onto a Stewart Grayhawk. The ceiling is white and the walls are papered in a pale blue, not ideal HC surroundings but this is my living room and was a compromise I had to make for 'er indoors. Nonetheless, with a less than ideal HC room the results are none too shabby.

    Coming soon will be ISF calibration with a CC30R or CC40R filter to try and improve black level further, plus maybe one or two other little tweaks to try and get a better black. Anyway, check the photo's out, criticism good or bad is always welcome.
     

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  26. Dick Scratcher

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    Another
     

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  27. Dick Scratcher

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  28. Dick Scratcher

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    Don't know where the other photo's disappeared to, I'll try the missing ones again.
     

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  29. Dick Scratcher

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