DLP v's CRT - The Experts decide!

Discussion in 'Projectors, Screens & Video Processors' started by Boris Blank, Feb 8, 2004.

  1. Boris Blank

    Boris Blank
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2000
    Messages:
    1,771
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    66
    Location:
    Outpost 31
    Ratings:
    +213
    One of the greatest CRT experts is having a shootout between a Sharp 11000, an HT1000 and an NEC XG in a thread over at AVS http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=363820

    For folks that don't know, Guy Kuo is the brains that put together Avia disc and is a well-known, no, make that THE BEST crt guru in the known world! He has been a dyed in the wool true blue crt fan for donkey's years but recently has been won over to dlp (he now swears by the HT1000 which he now owns as well as an XG). Not to put too fine a point on it, he wrote the book on calibration of display devices and knows his stuff BIG-time.

    He has agreed to do a shoot-out between crt and dlp - folks, this will be very interesting indeed! Not to pre-judge the results but from previous comments Guy has made, crt has pretty much had its day!
    Paul
     
  2. Boris Blank

    Boris Blank
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2000
    Messages:
    1,771
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    66
    Location:
    Outpost 31
    Ratings:
    +213
    As this is a digital pj forum, just to let you know that the NEC XG135 LC being used is one of the best crt projectors you can buy - it is top end and bettered by only a very, very few vastly more expensive 9" crts. We're talking best of the best here.

    A few months ago crt users would have laughed at this sort of comparison, sort of David versues Goliath except Goliath wins. Fast forward to the present day and things don't look so good for analogue projectors any more.
    Paul
     
  3. Paul D

    Paul D
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2000
    Messages:
    2,743
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    Manchester
    Ratings:
    +539
    Here's my thoughts!

    CRT to win hands down in the "Overall picture quality" award
    DLP second, but gets the "Best newcomer award"

    CRT get's the "Best black level" award
    DLP get's the "Brightest picture" award

    CRT get's "Best on-off contrast" award
    DLP get's "Best Ansi contrast"award

    CRT get's "Smoothest picture" award
    DLP get's "Sharpest picture" award

    I could go on and on, but the bottom line is high end CRT(Cine9-G90) is still way ahead.
    Dlp has caught middle range CRT, and is about to surpass it.

    If you are spending around £10k, then CRT and DLP are hard to seperate. It more comes down to your needs/wants etc.
    If you are spending around £20k, i would still recommend CRT. The Cine9/G90 are sharp bright and give stunning images, and are very stable. I think the £20k DLP/SXRD only better them if larger screen sizes are needed.

    I have gone DLP, but i still love CRT. Just a shame i couldn't afford a Cine9/G90!

    Anyway, i'll pop over and have a look at this thread.
    As i've been saying since getting my Marantz S3 DLP, some CRT people would be suprised by how good it is...
     
  4. Boris Blank

    Boris Blank
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2000
    Messages:
    1,771
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    66
    Location:
    Outpost 31
    Ratings:
    +213
    I hear ya but we're talking affordable levels here. The XG costs costs less the Sharp (I'm talking used, not new) and well less than the current AVforums favourite the S3. Guy will tell it as it is, if dlp's better he'll say it.

    I suspect that black level may be the ONLY thing that crt wins on, we'll see.
    Paul

    Edit - I think I maybe sounded a bit harsh above, my apologies. What I'm trying to say is that at the affordable consumer level (i.e. us lot here), dlp is now more viable than crt on the vast majority of levels/criteria that us home-cinema fans expect/require.

    Edit of the edit! I think I just said what you just said! Ok, ok, I'm off to bed and I'll read Guy's comments in the morning!
     
  5. Jeff

    Jeff
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    5,507
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    106
    Location:
    Basingstoke
    Ratings:
    +263
    Black level isn't the biggest problem, I have a bigger problem with temporal dithering, motion artefacts and rainbows. Colours and contrast are also better on CRTs (good ones that is)
     
  6. gizlaroc

    gizlaroc
    Member

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2001
    Messages:
    9,176
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    Norwich
    Ratings:
    +796
    Ooh now this is going to be interesting, I have the smaller XG750 and have just been asking about new digitals versus crt.
    at least I have the day off tomorrow, I was just about to go to bed but think I may be up for a little longer now :rolleyes:
     
  7. Paul D

    Paul D
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2000
    Messages:
    2,743
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    Manchester
    Ratings:
    +539
    Jeff, i agree with you from 1209s and above versus single chip DLP.
    But!
    Today i saw my first three chip DLP "Sim HT500".
    No dithering, rainbow and colours have the potential to exceed CRT.
    Dlp does seem better with Ansi contrast. Ie part lit scenes etc.
    As for on-off contrast, then yes the CRT is better.
    But!
    The Eclipse from Immersive is reported to allow perfect blacks from digital Pjs.

    I nearly went for a 1209s, but certain things with CRT(not PQ) made me go DLP.
    I assure you i'm 100% happy with my decision. The S3 isn't perfect, as i have seen the odd rainbow flash. But i haven't seen any dithering or anything to make me cringe.

    Want to know the BEST thing about my S3?

    I trust it's giving it's best picture all the time.
    With the CRT i was paranoid something needed adjustment.
    A soft picture would warrant a quick foray into the menus to double check.
    Any chroma shift would have me checking the convergence.
    With the S3 i know they must be source related, so i have gotten back to just enjoying movies.
    This alone would be worth losing some picture quality. But as it turned out i feel i have just traded some picture qualities for others.:)
     
  8. Peter Parker

    Peter Parker
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2001
    Messages:
    13,231
    Products Owned:
    1
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    UK.
    Ratings:
    +2,766
    Guy says this about his FLD filtered HT1000:

    "The picture wlll put to shame most CRT's save but in the very dimmest scenes. I risk getting drummed out of the CRT forum in saying this, but in anything brighter than a dawn shot, the little HT1000 set up my way will beat a CRT in most people's eyes."

    So DLP isn't as far behind CRT as it was. I think the majority of people would be more than happy with the picture a well set-up DLP can produce now days.

    Apparently even the G90 pushes green/yellow, so no projector is perfect in every way. You just have to choose that which suits you best. :)

    Gary.
     
  9. Mr.D

    Mr.D
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2000
    Messages:
    11,167
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    133
    Ratings:
    +1,209
    Biggest failing with regard to CRT is the colour . There are certain colours that just don't resolve correctly on CRT. My biggest disapointment at the Event 2 was the colour and stability on some of the CRTs.

    I can see how dye based filters in dlps ( and lcds) allow better (bigger) colour than a phosphor.
     
  10. Mr.D

    Mr.D
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2000
    Messages:
    11,167
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    133
    Ratings:
    +1,209
    It has to be said that Guys opinion was that a sharp 11K was the better performer out of the DLPs although thats not to say the HT100 didn't put up a good showing.

    I saw a sharp 10K once and it nearly put me off digital for life!
     
  11. David PluggedIn

    David PluggedIn
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2003
    Messages:
    544
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    21
    Ratings:
    +10
    Excellent point
     
  12. LV426

    LV426
    Administrator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2000
    Messages:
    13,441
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    Somewhere in South Yorkshire
    Ratings:
    +5,852
    In my view, the 3-chip Sim DLP job is a CRT-killer. No contest. It ought to be more than 'pretty good' given the asking price. However, it does seem plausible that, in time, 3-chip DLP will become more affordable (everything does).

    Now all we need is an array of high intensity LEDs for the lamp (11 -year lifespan) and we're close to having the ideal machine.

    Now, I have a question (see if you can follow the logic here).

    One can buy THREE SIM2 single chip machines for (depending on the model) say GBP10,000.

    Each has (fairly simple) optics, a DLP chip, scaling, processing a colour wheel and the necessary stuff to synchronise it with the chip, inputs, outputs, power supply, lamp, fan, lamp ballast ...... and so on.

    So, one could dismantle these three, throw away two of much of each, and all three colour wheels and synchronisation systems. And add static filters plus more complicated optics to merge internally the three colour images (in a similar way to what is done in LCDs). And I'd have a 3-chip DLP. In theory.

    What I can't get my head around, is that <the cost of the more complicated optics> minus <the cost of the redundant stuff thrown away> has to add up to (if we take the 3-chip SIM as case in point) GBP15,000.

    I'm sure there are many areas in which the 3-chip SIM is better than its cheaper brothers - I guess it has to be to even try to justify its price - but, I suspect that <the cost of the redundant stuff thrown away> would probably cover all that good stuff.

    Which leaves me with GBP15,000 for the internal glassware. Which doesn't seem all that plausible. The lack of a lesser, affordable 3-chip DLP in the marketplace does seem to suggest that there isn't (yet) the will to actually make one.
     
  13. The Nightfly

    The Nightfly
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2002
    Messages:
    821
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    31
    Location:
    The New Frontier
    Ratings:
    +24
    Nigel,

    I see where you're going and would add the following: it seems to me that it is a much easier proposition to get realistic looking colours and intensities from a 3-chip device than it is from a shared 1-chip device working with light sliced-up by a colour wheel.

    As for re-combining light from three colour sources, LCD projectors do this all the time and look how much they cost.

    I'm sure if we'd had 3-chip DLP right from the start and some projector manufacturer looked at making a 1-chip unit the idea would be shelved pretty quickly as being not cost effective.

    However, I'm not a projector manufacturer, so what do I know

    :rolleyes:

    Allan
     
  14. Boris Blank

    Boris Blank
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2000
    Messages:
    1,771
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    66
    Location:
    Outpost 31
    Ratings:
    +213
    You have hit the nail on the head Paul, this is exactly how I feel about crt. There is a constant nagging doubt that something is, has, or will go wrong!
    Paul
     
  15. Jeff

    Jeff
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    5,507
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    106
    Location:
    Basingstoke
    Ratings:
    +263
    I feel totally secure with my CRT, it's built like a tank, 6 years old and still going strong. With a digital projector the lamp or the PSU could go at any minute. Re 3 chip DLP I'm not sure an affordable a 3 chip DLP will ever become available. Even if someone wanted to make one, I'm not sure TI would allow it.
     
  16. gizlaroc

    gizlaroc
    Member

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2001
    Messages:
    9,176
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    Norwich
    Ratings:
    +796
    The only problem I have with CRT is I don't let my daughter, aged 9, use it when I am not there, the colours stability, ease of use (once set up) is a non issue, well it has been on my NEC XG, not on prevoius projectors, however they are too big! and I have a dedicated room as well.
    However I am off to New York next week so I may give the guys at AV science a call and see what price they can give me on a S3 or 12k. Anyone know what the price after discounts is in US$ ??
     
  17. JohnWH

    JohnWH
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2004
    Messages:
    1,826
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    St Albans
    Ratings:
    +82
    Don't CRT's have nasty burn in problems?

    John.
     
  18. Nic Rhodes

    Nic Rhodes
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2001
    Messages:
    17,152
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    133
    Location:
    Cumbria
    Ratings:
    +1,276
    Only if you don't use them correctly, doesn't DLP cause headaches? ;)
     
  19. LV426

    LV426
    Administrator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2000
    Messages:
    13,441
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    Somewhere in South Yorkshire
    Ratings:
    +5,852
    SIM2's GBP25000 jobby won't. (3 chips, no colour wheel). The rest do. I still - even on Sunday with the latest "normal" DLP (single chip, colour wheel) offerings from SIM2 and Philips - see raibows on contrast material. Yuk.
     
  20. Kramer

    Kramer
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    .............don't LCDs have poor blacks (.....err, I mean greys....:D)

    Here we go again, a LCD v DLP v CRT debate. All different technologies (well, maybe not fair classifying CRT as "technology" :p ). Some suitable for one, others entirely unsuitable.

    I liked the HT1000 but IMO, it's farsical to suggest it's not bettered by anything but the very best CRT. Excellent CR, colour rendition & black level but relatively low resolution. The pixels were very noticeable to me at my usual seating distance (1.5x). Given their size, curves had a jagged appearance. It also had pretty noticeable rainbowing although I was getting used to it after a week or so.

    If he's happy with his HT1000, more power to him but this is all subjective. I would prefer CRT myself but unfortunately the powers that be wouldn't accept such a huge unit bolted to our ceiling.

    My (very personal) opinion.

    :smoke:
     
  21. JohnWH

    JohnWH
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2004
    Messages:
    1,826
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    St Albans
    Ratings:
    +82
    I wasn't intending to start that debate again, it was a serious question. 90% of the movies I watch are 2.35:1 aspect ratio, is it not correct to be concerned about burn in, the same as you should be with any CRT or plasma display?

    John.
     
  22. hornydragon

    hornydragon
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2001
    Messages:
    28,346
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    Somewhere near the M4 most of the time......
    Ratings:
    +1,218
    Jumping in with a stupid question, anyone seen one of those £25K runco jobbies?
    Can you buy a brand new warrantied CRT for £7k and will it beat an S3, Sim2 HT300 or Ivision HD???
     
  23. Peter Parker

    Peter Parker
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2001
    Messages:
    13,231
    Products Owned:
    1
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    UK.
    Ratings:
    +2,766
    I think if you have the room for one, then you'd be right, but if you're after a much larger screen, the CRT probably wouldn't have the lumens. You'd have to stack two G90s together for that.

    Hell, why not use three? It'd still be cheaper. ;)

    If you want a tiny box on the ceiling or something that's portable, can be set-up in seconds, and can give an image that's almost as good in some respects, and better in others, then a DLP is the way to go. I'm sure it won't be long before DLP will be better in all respects though, and still in the price bands we're familiar with now.

    Gary.
     
  24. Jeff

    Jeff
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    5,507
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    106
    Location:
    Basingstoke
    Ratings:
    +263
    I think I'll stick with my inferior 9" CRT ;) I know I'm missing out on all those lovely art effects but I guess I'm just an old so and so that can't live with the times. :)
     
  25. Peter Parker

    Peter Parker
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2001
    Messages:
    13,231
    Products Owned:
    1
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    UK.
    Ratings:
    +2,766
    What art effects Jeff? :)

    Have you been reading the thread over at avs? Quite an interesting read wouldn't you say?

    Gary.
     
  26. Jeff

    Jeff
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    5,507
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    106
    Location:
    Basingstoke
    Ratings:
    +263
    It's mildly amusing, especially the cat fight between Heat and Fulabeer in the CRT forum thread. :D I don't find the results that surprising, usual AVS crap that tends to come up from time to time. Guy Kuo can be a bit strange at times, he had the perfect oportunaty to put Cliff right about his dodgy scoped Radeon settings but either chose not to or didn't understand the issues. Never mind, Cliff eventually figured it out for himself.

    Personally I simply find all digital projectors unwatchable and it's not like I haven't seen some good ones. I really hope they eventually get it sorted because I really want an all digital 1080P setup some day. Forgetting all the artefacts, you can't even buy a Digital projector and expect it to do all the common refresh rates at its native res. Whats the excuse for that? bloody lazy designers, thats what it is.
     
  27. Peter Parker

    Peter Parker
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2001
    Messages:
    13,231
    Products Owned:
    1
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    UK.
    Ratings:
    +2,766
    I never venture into the crt forums, but might do now that you've brought that to my attention. :)

    I couldn't see a great deal of difference between CRT and DLP from normal seating distance myself, so I'm surprised by your coments re: unwatchable, especialy as a lot of crt owners seem to be going the digital route now.

    I guess we all have different preferences, but I have to say that some crt owners seem to be overly vitriolic towards digital, and I can only wonder why.

    Gary.
     
  28. RTFM

    RTFM
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2003
    Messages:
    1,014
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Location:
    Horsham, West Sussex
    Ratings:
    +17
    Much as I love CRT displays. 50Hz flicker when using PAL sources does a real number on me.
     
  29. LV426

    LV426
    Administrator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2000
    Messages:
    13,441
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    Somewhere in South Yorkshire
    Ratings:
    +5,852
    Why would you want to refresh at a rate other than that determined by the original source (eg DVD)?
     
  30. Jeff

    Jeff
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    5,507
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    106
    Location:
    Basingstoke
    Ratings:
    +263
    Use 75Hz then. :)
     

Share This Page

Loading...
  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice