DLP is it the way to go.

Discussion in 'General TV Discussions Forum' started by cejsmith, May 15, 2005.

  1. cejsmith

    cejsmith
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    I'm thinking of upgrading to a new set, in the 40 to 50" range and was looking at LCD and plasma. Then yesterday, I was in comet and saw a sagam set running a HD feed and was total blown away. I've never liked projector sets in the past, I always though they looked fuzzy and washed out in daylight and a big as a CRT set.

    Have these new DLP sets changed that and would you say they are the way forwards? I will be using it with SKY+ and a DVD player
     
  2. LV426

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    DLP RPTVs are capable of producing pictures better (to many peoples' opinion) than other technologies.

    But, and this is a big but, a (I guess relatively small) proportion of people don't get along with them. They can (in some) cause irritation or even nausea, and/or be tiring to watch for prolonged periods.

    It's due to the way in which they generate colour. In fact the image on screen is never a full colour one; it is a rapidly changing and repeating sequence of all red, all green, all blue (not sure of the order) which relies on your eyes/brain to merge together to get colour. And in some people this causes the issues I mention.

    Different models do this at different speeds; in general, the newer and/or more "upmarket" the faster. And faster means lower likelihood of these effects (although some people are affected like this by them all). It's not something you can get help from others on, either. You can only tell by finding out how it affects you.

    I can only strongly recommend that before you buy, you ensure that you, and any members of your family/friends etc will not be so affected. Otherwise, you end up with an expensive mistake.

    Don't get me wrong; it's probable that like many, you will have a good experience. It is the intolerable nature of the side effects that make it essential you make sure.
     
  3. St_ve

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    DLP sets are very bright with non reflective screens & are easier to watch in daylight than a CRT set. High definition is the future starting next year with Sky & they are all very good with Hidef.
    DLP sets are capable of superb quality DVD playback at 50" and upwards & some of the better quality wildlife broadcasts on BBC are fantastic.

    All DLP sets have to scale up a broadcast signal & DVD to the their native resolution 1280x720p for most sets , even with good scalers, if you have a lousy analog signal, you'll still see smearing, ghosting, banding and other problems on a DLP set.
    Fortunately nearly all programs on my set whether Telewest cable or analougue broadcast or digital broadcast with my PC are very watchable with the best programs looking very good. Football used to be a problem on Telewest & broadcast TV with the grass looking very strange but for the last couple of weeks it has been quite good (maybe they are using more bandwidth or better cameras).

    All the DLP sets have some problems in common & problems related to specific models.
    Read the DLP Problems, solutions and workrounds sticky at the top of the page & also read through any threads on any DLP model you are thinking of buying.

    Read the link from lcdprojectoronline about rainbow's they guess at 1% of the population being affected by them.
    I think most people will see a rare flash now & then
    http://www.lcdprojectoronline.com/lcd-vs-dlp.html
    The article was written in 2002
     
  4. Razor

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    Best thing to do is demo, demo, demo. I personally think DLP rear pro (and front pro) gives a far better picture than a plasma or LCD.

    Plus you dont have to worry about screen burn with a DLP :).

    With regards to rainbows its all down to the personal viewer. This would be the first thing I would look for if you are new to DLP technology. It might be best to view a front pro DLP as this would be set up in a dark room. If you dont see rainbows on a large screen in the dark your not going to see them on a smaller screen in normal viewing condidtions. This was the method I used, I couldnt see the rainbows which I was glad of. In fact rainbow effects arent as common as they used to be with 6-7 segment colour wheels now installed on these DLP machines.

    You will know instantly if you suffer badly from seeing rainbows. A good friend of mine saw rainbows within minutes of seeing my screen and complained of headaches etc. He is the one and only person I have meet that suffers like this.

    Try and demo a large front pro and deciede if you are effected by rainbows. If the results are good I would look at a Samsung 50' DLP set.

    Good Luck. Happy shopping :D
     
  5. -TYN-

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    I think that DLP has the sharpest picture and is particully suited for pc displays and colour saturation is excellent. But i think the big bugbear is the colour wheel which is afterall a mechanical part that can wear/stop or go out of sync and this is also the culprit of the rainbow effect, dot dithering, blurring and oil effect. With this problem solved i would agree that it has the best PQ "potential" although a minor niggle is that colours seem slightly unnatural.

    I would also agree with LV426 about eye fatigue so take viewing distance into account also (DLP's seem extra vibrant and bright).
     
  6. hedgehog

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    Hi Nigel,

    I follow the DLP Development now for over 1 year intensely (manly in german forum) and had one set (Thomson 50 DLP 644) also at my home (sent it back due to other reasons).
    I heard your argument also one time in the german forum (which is not much for the long time), but also - like here - from the theoretical point of view.

    I never heard from a person directly, that he/she had the problems, you told about.

    Was here in this forum such a discussion before, or was here a member how was/is effected by this problem?
     
  7. LV426

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    Eyestrain and nausea: I get this from all DLP front projectors I've seen (except the 3-chip ones). And rainbows from all the Rear projectors. This includes the upmarket items from people like SIM2. (I'm also very sensitive to CRT flicker, and can even see rainbows on three-tube CRT front projection).

    This is not theory; it's my own experience. I first saw DLP rainbows before I knew how they worked; it was this experience that made me interested enough to find out how they work.

    A search in this forum will reveal others who have experienced the same or similar. Again, not theory, but experience. One member even started a thread wanting to exchange his new DLP projector for an LCD one, precisely for this reason.

    However, all this theory and others' experience means nothing except as a warning to all prospective purchasers to be aware of the potential issue find out for themselves if it will apply to them and their families etc., before buying. Because it may well not do so. But if it does, you have an expensive mistake.
     
  8. Razor

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    What I would like to know is why these 3-chip DLP front projectors cost around £20,000 when you can get a whole HD2+ DLP set or front pro for £2000?

    I have posted this link before, it shows you haow a 1 chip and 3 chip system works.


    http://www.cinema-astoria.com/frontpage/dlpdemo.html

    :D
     
  9. hedgehog

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    Rainbow is clear and I heard a lot about, also I never saw it :) (and I do not like to search for it ;) ).

    But the other thing: eyestrain, nausea, ... sounds not very well, and I'm sure this can not be detected in a shop.
    What's the reason for it, even the good old CRT "image on screen is never a full colour one". Colours are also composed of varying intensities of neighboring pixels determined by the aperture mask.

    Television is always tiring for me ;) , but how long does it take that you get the other symptoms?
     
  10. LV426

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    How long before eyestrain occurs? I'm guessing here, because in my case DLPs typically become uncomfortable after only a few minutes, but for others - eyestrain/tiredness - perhaps an hour or so.

    I don't believe the issue is caused by any other attribute of the image except the constant rapid changes in colour or brightness (not part of the incoming signal) that are a fundamental part of how a DLP or CRT (respectively) generate their images. In some respect this is rather like the strobe lighting effect you might find in a nightclub (but much faster).

    You say TV is tiring for you.........I assume you are talking about a regular CRT set?

    The eyestrain, I believe, comes about because the image on screen is constantly flashing (on and off for CRT, different colours for DLP). Your eyes and/or brain have a lot of work to do, to merge these constant changes into a solid moving image. Flickering (of any type) does not occur in nature and, whilst we can process it, perhaps it's something we aren't naturally intended to do.

    Have you ever spend any length of time watching an LCD (either projected or direct view)? I only ask because, whilst LCDs have other shortcomings (typically, poorer contrast is the only major drawback that still remains), they do not flicker at all. They display an image of constant colour and brightness, changing only as the source signal dictates.

    If you have (or can) and you find this platform less tiring, you may have an answer.
     
  11. Razor

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    LV426

    I disagree with that comment totally. I now use my RD65 as my main monitor for work. I spend at least around 4-5 hours a day doing pc work on the RD65 and then I watch a good 4-5 hours a day or more normal tv viewing ie movies, soaps, series etc.

    I never suffer from eyestrain, I belive this is related to how high the intensity level the bulb is set at. If I turned the intensity up eye strain will rear its head, especially in a dark room, but this is true of any display. Incorrect setup can lead to eyestrain, I have had this from my LCD display and this is set up correctly.

    To say that eyestrain or tiredness occurs after an hour of viewing is rubbish & incorrect (come on LV426 we all know you dont like DLP technology, you have evan called it rubbish in private message to me).

    If your statement was true no one would be using DLP techonlogy. People would be complaining and returning their front and rear pros all the time. DLP front pro's would not be held in such high regard as they are and I doubt we would of ever of seen a rear pro DLP set. A display that can only display a watchable picture for an hour or so is useless.

    You mention that the flashing of the picture is what causes the eyestrain on DLP and CRT. This may be true but as I have said above LCD displays are not devoid of eyestrain and they use a different method for diplaying a picture. I know many people who complain from eyestrain that use a LCD flat panel for work. In fact it is law that you have to have a certain amount of time away from a vdu if you work constantly with them to releave eyestrain. This law applies to flat panel as well as crt monitors. Please dont quote me on this but I think its 15min for every hour of use or 15min out of every hour. One of the two.

    :D
     
  12. indie24

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    hmm i will have to agree with razor. I do not get any eyestrain and neither does the 6 others in my family (I have a big family) i watch tv for around 3 hours day but my other members can watch it for up to 6. none have complained with rainbows or eye strain or any other symptoms. Again this is from experience not theory :thumbsup:
     
  13. belgrade

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    I don't think that Nigel is saying that you WILL suffer from eyestrain after an hour , but that an hour or so is a good prolonged test to see if you do suffer from eyestrain/tiredness/nausea.
     
  14. indie24

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    have had people older than 80 view my tv for hours. no probs. maybe nigel has supervision x ray eyes. if you have nigel i want u to check out a few birds i have to tell me the good news :thumbsup:
     
  15. NicolasB

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    Is there a known connection between susceptibility to CRT refresh-rate flicker and susceptibility to DLP rainbows? I wouldn't be surprised if there were.

    Plenty of people in my office cannot see a CRT computer monitor screen flickering when it's refreshed at 60Hz. Personally I can easily see flicker even at 75Hz, and anything less than that makes my eyes hurt in seconds. I'm wondering if this doesn't bode very well for DLP. :(
     
  16. hedgehog

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    What is the refresh rate of an DLP? Only 50(60)Hz or a multiple of it?
     
  17. -TYN-

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    I think LV426 meant it is another downpoint which like the rainbow effect can effect "certain" people not all. I can see rainbows for fun and i did get eye strain nausier after prolonged viewing but prehaps my eyes are just too sensative. I dont think that the technology is rubbish, far from it but it does seem to have the most problems out of any new display technology's. You first have to worry about seeing rainbows then see if you suffer from eyestrain then worry about the many discussed onscreen issues being present that are a side effect of dlp/colour wheel. I just hope these niggles (major problems for some) are curred soon, but this seems along way off as no further mention of the scr colour wheel has been mentioned which is a shame as i would like one "now".
    The wait continues.................. :(
     
  18. LV426

    LV426
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    Yes, -TYN- and belgrade, that exactly it. If you read my "one hour" post in the context of my previous post and the subsequent dialogue you will see this to be the case.
    I have been at pains to point out over and again that these effects only arise in some people. If they don't arise in you, all well and good. However, just because Razor, indie24 and Lion aren't affected does not mean the phenomenon does not arise. Indeed, those who are unaffected are wholly unqualified to judge the effects on those who are. There isn't a power on this earth that can make someone blessed with (let me call it) "slow eyes" see what someone plagued with "fast eyes" can.

    Very probably. I'm certainly similarly affected. Minimum 85hz on a small CRT monitor before I can get comfortable with it.

    Quoted out of context, Razor. You well know that it's not that I don't like DLP per se. It's that it has the effects I describe on me and I find it unbearable to watch. And I do mean unbearable. When 3-chip DLP becomes a commercial reality (by which I mean, not costing more than three no. one-chip machines) I'll probably buy one (front projector that is). However, for as long as manufacturers continue to chase what, to me is the lame duck of single chips and colour wheels, I have to stick with LCD. Although not unbearable in the same way, for similar reasons I also "don't like" 50hz CRTs and some types of Plasma.

    Haven't I answered that?
    I'm going to say this again. I'm not contending that DLPs don't produce a good picture; the right models undoubtedly do. However in some people they have a side effect which isn't simply annoying; it's actually unbearable. It's precisely for that reason that I feel obliged to warn anyone against a blind purchase.
     
  19. Razor

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    LV426 :hiya:

    Thank you for your prompt reply.

    Rainbow effects are DLP's weak point, however this side effect has been greatly reduced with each new generation of DLP projectors. I would say that I am a good judge of the rainbow effect as I own a DLP set and I can judge peoples comments on their experiences with my RD65. I think it is incorrect to be a judge on this type of technology if you are not compatible with this and other popular methods of display (some crt's & plasma's). The advice given will be biased and not what the general public are experiencing. I have noticed that your posts in the LCD forums are allot more positive and enthusiastic than they are in the DLP section.

    I would say that over 60 people have seen my set and have watched a movie or been round for an evening or three :D . Out of all those people I have only seen 1 person complain of rainbows. Lets say for arguments sake 2% of the people who have viewed my set have complained of this effect. Which as you can see isn't a high proportion.

    However i was surprised how bad this did effect one person and I can totally understand the pitfalls of buying this technology if you suffer from this problem. However I would also say that the chances of being as sensitive to the rainbow effect is very slim.


    The 3 chip technology is of course a better system but I wouldn't call the 1 chip system a lame duck. It is general knowledge that single chip DLP front projectors are far superior in picture quality to its LCD brothers. This is also true of DLP rear pros and LCD rear pros. A LCD rear pro couldn't touch a DLP set on picture quality and colour representation.


    I agree that the rainbow issue should be the first thing you look for when first viewing DLP technology. But as I have said above rainbow effect really does only effect very few people as badly as it does you. It is a shame that you can not experience the full pleasures of DLP technology in the same way I and other members are. It must be frustrating seeing newer better technology and not been able to use it. I remember being worried about my first viewing of DLP for just this reason. As you say the only way for you to upgrade from a LCD front pro is to go the 3 chip DLP route which at the moment is stupidly expensive.

    :smashin:
     
  20. Razor

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    Hedgehog :hiya:

    At the moment the current DLP sets are only 50hz and 60hz. Except for the Optoma RD range which can only do 50hz :mad:

    :thumbsup:
     
  21. St_ve

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    Future developments may eliminate rainbows
     
  22. exhort

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    Holla,
    I am at the begining of research into what projector I am about to buy, the choice is somewhat baffling,can anyone give me some pointers that will allow me to narrow my search? pref the best makes, or indeed makes that are good yet one does not have to payfor the name.

    It will have high usage
    It will be used in night clubs for visual displays
    I want it to have parts that don’t cost the earth, (I wouldn't mind this if it didn't ever break down)


    Any help is much appreciated, I can’t give much back by way of technological input, but I have some very good Thai, Indian and other recipes.

    B
    Glasgow
     
  23. LV426

    LV426
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    The rainbow effect is one thing; to those who see it, it is fairly immediately visible (with the right material, in some cases) and for many (but not all), even if seen, can be ignored.

    Watching fatigue (or eyestrain etc.) is another thing entirely. I believe the effects to be much more subtle; not a visible artefact as such, more a weariness from prolonged viewing - a desire to quit prematurely - lack of relaxation; those sort of things. A similar effect, if you will, to that of poorish quality "hi-fi" with a level of distortion present, not sufficient to hear explicitly, but there nevertheless; in this case, nothing audible, just lack of desire to listen for prolonged periods. Indeed, it could be argued that DLP's sequential colour techinques are artificial to the source signal and are hence might be termed "distortion" in the purest sense.

    There is no doubt that this occurs with 1-chip DLPs in some users. And it can only be evaluated by the prospective purchaser spending some time with the equipment.

    Quite the opposite. It's precisely because I am, let's say, one of the unfortunate few, that I can offer counsel on the potential pitfalls. In my case, as the colour wheel gets faster, my predisposition moves from seeing (and being nauseated by) Rainbows towards simply finding the image wearisome to watch.
     
  24. LV426

    LV426
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    Are you looking for FRONT projection (e.g. as might be mounted on a ceiling, pointing at a screen some distance away). If so, you should ask this in the "DLP and LCD projectors" or "CRT projectors" section. For use in any kind of smoky atmosphere, CRT is advised, unless you can encolse one of the others in a clean air box.
     
  25. Joe Fernand

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    Hello all

    cejsmith - ensure that whatever you do decide to purchase is 'HD Ready' - that is it had an HDMI or DVI (with HDCP) Digital video input that accepts a 720P and 1080i signals at both 50 and 60 Hz; there are plenty of 720P DLP Rear Projection 'HD' units that don't.

    Colour Separation (Rainbows) is definitely more of an issue with DLP Rear Projection units than with the latest DLP Projectors - the Rear Projection units seem to be a generation behind the stand alone Projectors.

    exhort - for a big punchy image your best looking at a 'Conference/Installation' Dual Lamp Projector from the likes of Panasonic; the DLP Home Theatre kit discussed around here doesn't have the light Output for your application.

    We've supplied a lot of kit to places like the CCA on Sauchiehall St and whilst they have a range of projectors to suit various applications the units they use for most 'events' are LCD outputting around 3600 ANSI lumen.

    If your budget allows then a Panasonic PT-D5500E XGA DLP Dual Lamp with 5000 ANSI lumen will be ideal.

    Drop me a note if you want more info on products relative to your application.

    Best regards

    Joe
     
  26. -TYN-

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    From the posts i have read in this forum i have heard a large amount of owners mention they had seen the rainbow effect atleast once and in varying degrees, most of these owners can live with it as it happens fleetingly or very rarely but for the unlucky few who see it all the time it is a bummer and a DLP no go :) . No matter how many people who suffer seriously it should still be warned to prospective purchasers so they can make up their own mind by testing.
    If i was stuck with one after (which i nearly was) spending 2 - 3k then i would be pretty p-----d if nobody told me about this potential pitful.

    I am a big Dlp fan but a colour wheel hater :D
    I wants me a dlp so please hurry and solve this issue for us, the minority, Whats happened with the SCR wheel which was mentioned years ago is it still coming ?

    [edit]
     
  27. taesoo

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    Though I also can easily see flicker at 75 hz, I never experience DLP rainbows or eyestrain. Lucky for me :)
    I don't mean that there is no connectivity between sensitivitys to CRT flicker and DLP rainbows.
     
  28. Lion

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    I don't believe something exists unless I can see it,
    that's why I'm an atheist.
    I can't see rainbows on dlp sets..
    ergo..
    they don't exist.


    ( the above comments are NOT to be taken seriously :D )
     
  29. indie24

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    you cant see air and oxygen but u believe it exists :)
     

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