1. Join Now

    AVForums.com uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

DLP Intrigue!

Discussion in 'Projectors, Screens & Video Processors' started by Joe Fernand, Jul 31, 2003.

  1. Joe Fernand

    Joe Fernand
    Distinguished Member AVForums Sponsor

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2002
    Messages:
    24,430
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    The Borders
    Ratings:
    +2,593
    Hello all

    So off at 11:00 this morning to see what I'm told is the future of Home Cinema DLP sub £10K in the UK- wonder what I'll be seeing!

    Any guesses?

    Best regards

    Joe
     
  2. Messiah

    Messiah
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2002
    Messages:
    7,534
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    106
    Ratings:
    +339
    Nope, but sure would like to hear when you get back :)
     
  3. LV426

    LV426
    Administrator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2000
    Messages:
    12,844
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    Somewhere in South Yorkshire
    Ratings:
    +5,078
    3 x high-res (HDTV) 16x9 chips, no colour wheel, no rainbows, contrast (black levels) on a par with CRT......?
     
  4. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
    Distinguished Member AVForums Sponsor

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    14,011
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    Living in Surrey, covering UK!
    Ratings:
    +2,808
    Nigel,

    Sub £10,000? Your idea sounds nice though. I'd like to hear what Joe thinks as well......

    Gordon
     
  5. Boris Blank

    Boris Blank
    Member

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2000
    Messages:
    1,711
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    66
    Location:
    Outpost 31
    Ratings:
    +170
    Remind whoever is there that $1 does not equal £1 and that try as I might, I still can't get VAT, duty and postage to equate a 50% hike in the price of any kit coming in from the US :devil:
    Paul
     
  6. LV426

    LV426
    Administrator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2000
    Messages:
    12,844
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    Somewhere in South Yorkshire
    Ratings:
    +5,078
    One day soon, I guess it will be feasible. I'm not as 'up' on DLP as I might be, but......

    Suppose you can buy a fairly decent 1-chip DLP for, say GBP4000 retail. OK, at that price, it ain't going to be high definition, but, hey, what the heck? Of that price, what proportion of it is the DLP chip itself? Let's guess at about a third - say GBP1500.

    Add 2 more DLP chips - makes it GBP7000.

    Then, take off the colour wheel and sequential processing, but add back in dichroic prisms and filters, and do it all for less than GBP3000? You can buy a whole, 3-chip LCD item for GBP1000ish so I guess the optics could be done for probably half this.

    Use the leftover to increase resolution..........I'm sure it will come. But whether it's now or not, that's another question.
     
  7. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
    Distinguished Member AVForums Sponsor

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    14,011
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    Living in Surrey, covering UK!
    Ratings:
    +2,808
    It's postage, then duty, then vat.....and back up and service and profit have to fit in there somewhere too I believe.......but hey, I think all will be revealed soon enough,,,,,,hehehe


    Gordon
     
  8. Boris Blank

    Boris Blank
    Member

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2000
    Messages:
    1,711
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    66
    Location:
    Outpost 31
    Ratings:
    +170
    Well......, an example;

    Infocus 7200 DLP HD2

    UK Price £4499

    US price $4999 which equates to £3098 (plus shipping (£122), Duty 0%, VAT (£563.50) = £3783.50.

    On the basic price we pay some £1,401 more for the exact same PJ. OK, take into account the VAT etc (and the shipping charge is for an individual consumer, not the discounted trade cost) and the difference is still some £700 - for what, the exact same projector, the exact same backup, service and profit?? Hmmm, someone is having a laugh here at our expense (and this is one of the less extreme cost conversion examples that can be found!).

    The DLP intrigue is not so much whats new but how much we can expect to be fleeced in obtaining it. DLP (and other AV kit) pricing in the UK is a joke. (I know about market forces, supply/demand blah blah but we are still being fleeced).

    The good news though is that a return flight to the US is only about £250 these days, so with a big enough case you could still pop over, buy a projector, save some £1100 and have a holiday at the same time :cool:

    However, I still look forward to Joe's report and will be delighted if we see some realistic pricing at long last :smashin:

    Rant mode off!
    Paul
     
  9. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
    Distinguished Member AVForums Sponsor

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    14,011
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    Living in Surrey, covering UK!
    Ratings:
    +2,808
    Paul,

    You will, I am sure, be ranting at the price when it is announced. I'm sure Joe will give his thoughts on what he sees/ has seen.

    I'm actually with you on UK v US pricing. Some of my products I have tried to get below $=£. Some I haven't. It depends on how agressively the product is priced in its home market and how much room for manouver there is because of this. Nothing is as simple as you make out I'm afraid. I wish it was though as working out pricing gives me a flipping headache.

    Anyway, enough about global trade and econimics and lets wait to hear what sort of picture qualiuty the mystery object has!

    Gordon
     
  10. Boris Blank

    Boris Blank
    Member

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2000
    Messages:
    1,711
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    66
    Location:
    Outpost 31
    Ratings:
    +170
    Agreed :)

    Not expecting any big surprises are we? With HD2.5 on hold, this ALPS chip looks interesting enough but other than that not a lot happening (other than the flood of HD2's with new releases almost a daily occurence). Only real interest for me is the NEC HT1100 16:9 and the well beyond reach SXRD.

    The real killer would be a fully calibrated out of the box HD2 at £5k or less. Must surely be a real possibility given the highly competitive HD2 market - manufacturers will need to offer something extra to distingush their HD2 from everyone elses?

    Still, I'm inclined to hang-fire a while yet to see what HD2.5/3 can offer. With Guy Kuo recently stating that his tweaked NEC HT1000 gives him 95% of the pq that his NEC XG-LC provides (and in some cases even exceeds it!), DLP is becoming seriously interesting.
    Regards,
    Paul
     
  11. Joe Fernand

    Joe Fernand
    Distinguished Member AVForums Sponsor

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2002
    Messages:
    24,430
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    The Borders
    Ratings:
    +2,593
    Hello all

    So it was small and perfectly formed!

    I arrived into a darkened room (which was a bit of a shock to the eyeballs) and got to view the first view movie clips without knowing anything about what technology I was viewing.

    Initial thoughts were of a very high quality image being projected by something that didn't look (for a change- knowing this was sub £10K) like it had a Faroudja DCDi chipset.

    The on screen image was very detailed, pretty punchy and not overly processed with lots of depth and near black blacks.

    I'm afraid though that once the lights went on and my host (more to follow) let me see the wee beast (and talk through its features) were not going to meet Nigel's wish list.

    The mystery projector hails from the US and uses the TI Mustang HD2 DLP single ship device partnered with (surprisingly enough) the Genesis Faroudja DCDi chip set.

    Having viewed the first few movies (supplied by an Arcam FMJ DV27 - Interlaced YUV) and been fooled by the Non Faroudja look my host took me through the projectors MANY dedicated Home Cinema features not least of which is an exceptionally detailed 'on screen' menu system which reveals the reason why this little beast (SIM2 dimensions) produces such excellent non processed looking images.

    This unit is pure Home Cinema: the design team obviously know what works with the various technologies employed and what you require by way of user/integrator adjustments to get the best out of the projector in your system.

    There is a colour wheel - though I saw no visible rainbows* (apart form the odd trailing edge on paused scenes) and I sat about two feet back from the projector (coffee table mounted) and was not distracted by the low level (and pitched) cooling fan (the fan is variable rate depending on the internal temp of the projector).
    (*I'm usually pretty badly affected by rainbows)

    Up on screen (not a FireHawk) but a plain white surface - we got back to watching a few varied movie clips; dark scenes worked very well (giving only a very little away in terms of punch in very dark scenes to the £25K+ 3 Chip DLP Barco I'd recently viewed) and rendering bright (snow) scenes very well with lots of detail and no bleaching of differing contrast areas. (light output looked to be pretty uniform across the whole image).

    The 'out the box' set up on this unit is not your typical 'Hot' set up to impress your neighbours with - its been factory set to give you a near 'plug and play' projector for use in controlled lighting environments; though as ever having an experienced installer to hand with the correct calibration tools will eek out that extra 5-10% performance we all strive for.

    So how much and what is it!

    Its the all new Virtuoso HT720 from Immersive Inc in the US. See http://www.immersiveinc.com/reviews.html

    Pricing looks to be at or near £8.5K - and I've not looked so I dont know how that stacks up for those who fancy taking a trip to the US to do a personal purchase (remember though you'll not have any back up from a UK dealer or distributor if you do purchase abroad).

    Will it sell well in the UK - I believe so and we'll certainly be signing up to be a dealer with the NEW UK distributor!!!

    My host for the day! - I'm sure he's reading this so I'll let him add his thoughts and inform you more about his new baby and when and where it will be on 'general release' in the UK. (We also got to view a few D-Theatre 1080i tapes - there's a clue for you as I'm sure you all know he's a big fan of D-Theatre).

    So definateley one to put high on your shopping list - though some will have to hold off a while longer for the sub £5K 3 Chip DLP units we would all like.

    Best regards

    Joe
     
  12. LV426

    LV426
    Administrator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2000
    Messages:
    12,844
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    Somewhere in South Yorkshire
    Ratings:
    +5,078
    Joe - interesting, and a shame at the same time.

    Speaking (typing?) as one with unfortunately very fast eyes, and without having seen the item in question, my guess is that, at least for me, rainbows will still be an issue.

    I'd prefer to see investment going into cost-effective 3-chip devices, at the expense, if necessary, of absolute image processing quality. The best image process in the world will, unfortunately, be an irrelevance if the sequential colour schema remains nauseating.

    So, I guess I'm going to have to keep my LCD for now. Maybe sometime.....
     
  13. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
    Distinguished Member AVForums Sponsor

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    14,011
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    Living in Surrey, covering UK!
    Ratings:
    +2,808
    Nigel,

    We have to work with what we have just now. I see Rainbows too but not on this unit. I only saw a flash once in several hours viewing.

    I amk now driving to London for a few days. I'll try and catch up on this thread and post my opnions later in the evening.

    Cheers

    G
     
  14. Boris Blank

    Boris Blank
    Member

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2000
    Messages:
    1,711
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    66
    Location:
    Outpost 31
    Ratings:
    +170
    Nice projector, mega technical/user review here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=263419&highlight=virtuoso (currently updating their database so try later)

    Well worth a read if considering buying. Basically an average HD2 projector with some very worthwhile tweaks which does make it stand out from the rest of the HD2 crowd, ......just.

    Quoted street price in the US is $6500 (£4053).........!

    I'll refrain from a comment on the UK v US price as the price speaks for itself :laugh:
    Regards,
    Paul
     
  15. Messiah

    Messiah
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2002
    Messages:
    7,534
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    106
    Ratings:
    +339
    Lost my interest now :( Not just because of the fact I was expecting a new 'blow your socks off' technology but that price is insane. Yet again (I agree with PaulB) we in the UK will be ripped off. Well, I can only hope people don't fall for it.

    With the ever increasing reduction in geographical trade barriers (i.e. the Internet) I really can't see that many people paying near £10k for a £4k pj. Could be wrong though :)
     
  16. theritz

    theritz
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2002
    Messages:
    2,451
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    51
    Location:
    Ireland
    Ratings:
    +27
    Neil,

    Does that mean we won't be seeing you Sharp in the "For Sale" forum ?? It must be luuurve !! :D

    Just pulling your leg :smashin:


    Sean G.
     
  17. Messiah

    Messiah
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2002
    Messages:
    7,534
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    106
    Ratings:
    +339
    Well, there's only one thing I can fault this Z10k on and I can assure you it's not image quality. That is just amazing. The only downer is the fan noise but as I know there is no such thing as the perfect pj I am prepared to live with the noise in favour of the pic quality.

    Now, if the Virtuoso were around £5k I may be very tempted to have pic quality and quietness and may even consider importing one, but we'll see.

    Yep, I do luuurve the 10k :)
     
  18. theritz

    theritz
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2002
    Messages:
    2,451
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    51
    Location:
    Ireland
    Ratings:
    +27
    Neil,

    I am coming more and more to the view that fan noise is an accetable (and unavoidable) feature of digital projectors - not 747 taking off kinda noise, mind, but am fearful that "silent" projectors amongst the current crop are on the edge between meeting perceived market demand for "family friendly" noise levels and the longevity factor with heat damage to optics.

    The HS10 has attracted comment for being noisy - I recently had the chance to demo Kramers again, and was impressed at the low noise level for a PJ with five fans - I know that in high altitude mode it does spin up quite a lot and i wouldn't want that all the time, but with reasonable ventilation this can be avoided. I would be happy with it in my movie room, and happier that it was designed with decent sensor level and adequate cooling.

    If fan noise is only issue for you with the 10000, then it must have a seriously good picture........ it's been fun following your search through projectors for the past few months, if you're happy with the 10000 then it must be quite a performer.


    All the best,

    Sean.
     
  19. Gary Lightfoot

    Gary Lightfoot
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2001
    Messages:
    12,479
    Products Owned:
    1
    Products Wanted:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    Surrey. UK.
    Ratings:
    +2,123
    I find I can never hear fan noise while watching a film anyway.

    If you can hear it must be a very quiet movie. :)

    Gary.
     
  20. Messiah

    Messiah
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2002
    Messages:
    7,534
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    106
    Ratings:
    +339
    Yeah Gary you're right. It is only in quieter scenes that I notice it but even then I'm beginning to forget about it now. My ideal though would be to never hear it no matter how quiet the movie but then I can always dream ;)

    How's the HT1000 doing? Thinking of the new HT1100???
     
  21. Gary Lightfoot

    Gary Lightfoot
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2001
    Messages:
    12,479
    Products Owned:
    1
    Products Wanted:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    Surrey. UK.
    Ratings:
    +2,123
    The NEC is fine thanks Neil,

    The new HT1100 sounds very interesting, but although it's probably going to be a great machine and at a good price like the HT1000, I think I'll probably wait a while before I upgrade again.

    I had my old Davis DLS8 for 3 years before something that I considered good enough to replace it came alone, and I think I may do the same again here. After all, home theater projection seems to have really taken off now, and I think in another two years, the projector that will be hitting the market will make the HT1100 look outdated, but still be at affordable prices.

    That's my prediction anyway. ;)

    Glad you've settled with the Z10K - sounds like a stonking machie. Think you'll be enticed to upgrade at any time soon?

    Gary.
     
  22. Messiah

    Messiah
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2002
    Messages:
    7,534
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    106
    Ratings:
    +339
    Gary

    Like you I am very very happy with the Z10k and, seeing as I paid a HT1000 price, can't see me upgraduiing for at least 12 months if not longer. I too think a year or 2 from now there will be pjs that will blow all current models away and be similar, if not lower, pricing.

    I'll be saving my pennies and waiting till then.
     
  23. Gary Lightfoot

    Gary Lightfoot
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2001
    Messages:
    12,479
    Products Owned:
    1
    Products Wanted:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    Surrey. UK.
    Ratings:
    +2,123
    Where'd you get yours form? Price Japan?

    Bargain is all I can say! :)

    Gary
     
  24. Messiah

    Messiah
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2002
    Messages:
    7,534
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    106
    Ratings:
    +339
    Off these very forums. Originally a PJ unit but bought here for about £800 less than PJ price. :D
     

Share This Page

Loading...