DIY projector screen paint finally found for the uk! - black widow

Discussion in 'Projectors, Screens & Video Processors' started by custard10, Jun 6, 2008.

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  1. custard10

    custard10
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    As the title implies a paint mix has been found that can be used as projector paint.

    It is a clone of the USA black widow which has been extensively tested at the hometheatershack by Mech who i owe many thanks to.
    His expertise and time in researching an equivalent uk mix is greatly appreciated.

    The basis of the paint is to have a screen that is grey to create deeper blacks, and utilising aluminium to create a reflective screen, which helps improve white levels!
    [​IMG]

    The research for the uk paint can be found here:http://www.avforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=673357

    And the extensive thread on USA black widow can be found here:http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/projector-screens-diy-screens/8862-black-widow-pfg-presentation.html

    The US version of BW has a measured gain of 0.87 on axis (and 0.85 at 60 degress off axis)


    The paints that are used are:

    1) autoair aluminium fine
    2) s0907-y70r


    Both the above paints are available in the UK.

    If anyone has questions please don't hesitate to ask.

    More info to follow soon :thumbsup:

    Edit: 1) crown mix removed
    2) gain measurement added
     
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2008
  2. Para

    Para
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    I have a question and sorry if it's inappropriate.

    Does you screen name have anything to do with the paint? :D
     
  3. custard10

    custard10
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    :(i dont know the reason for naming it that. The name was coined up in the USA by Mech. he should hopefully be able to answer that question for you next week when he is back.
     
  4. Para

    Para
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    sorry you screen name is custard hence the link between the paint and your screen name.. bad joke.. I will go now!
     
  5. warbie

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    Hey custard. I checked out the threads you linked to and am very impressed with the the time and effort you and all others concerned have put into this. :clap:

    At the moment i'm struggling to find screen that meets my needs and am hoping this could be the one.

    Up to now i've tried 2 Beamax pulldowns - white and high contrast versions - 2 different screen goo mixes - digital grey and digital grey light - and none have come close to matching the depth and picture like image my cream wall offers (dulux classic cream). I haven't a clue why (any thoughts on this?), but the difference is night and day. I'd like to try this mix you've found but tbh I got more than little confused in the paints, brews and mixes thread and could do with an idiots guide.

    I've got time on my hands at the moment and a summary of exactly which paints, ratios etc etc you used would be very much appreciated.

    Cheers, Warb.
     
  6. custard10

    custard10
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    there are various mixes you coud try but the common ingredient in all of them is Autoair aluminium fine paint (AAA).

    AAA can be ordered from:

    SM Designs
    Enfield Farm
    11 Doctors Road
    Ballymena
    Co. Antrim
    Northern Ireland BT42 4HL
    Tel/Fax: (028) 25647237
    International:
    +44 28 25647237

    www.smdesigns.co.uk

    there are other companies in the uk that stock this paint aswell.

    if you want to keep the mix simple you can mix the AAA with S0907-y70r in a 1:4 ratio i.e 1 part AAA and 4 parts S0907-y70r.

    S0907 can be bought from leyland ( johnstone) paint outlets. you can find your nearest leyland outlet with a tinting facility by checking this website:
    http://www.leyland-paints.co.uk/index.php/services/stockists

    There is one other paint that can be used. a specific mix made by crown for me. the details for this mix is held at the walsall branch for crown.

    Dulux lumitec absolute white can also be added the mixes to help lighten them.

    i will not try to bog you down with all the mixes you can try, but if you would like to know more please ask :)
     
  7. warbie

    warbie
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    Thanks for the quick reply and suggestions :thumbsup:

    I've a few questions if you get a spare mo.

    What's the difference between your crown mix and the paint from leyland?

    Is mixing paints an exact science, or can I use a measuring jug from the kitchen and give them a good stir with a stick?

    I have a screen built and ready to paint on and would like to try the mix that works best with a little ambient light - would one of the standard mixes you suggested be the best place to start?

    Would I use lumitec absolute white if the resulting picture looked too dingy?

    How the hell can my cheap as chips cream paint be better than the uber expensive stuff from screen goo. goo has been a big disappointment for me!

    I'm getting qute interested in this so if there's any tips or mixes you think it's worth me considering i'm all ears.

    Thanks again :)
     
  8. custard10

    custard10
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    the first thing i would say that the mixes are ideal for bright projectors where ambient light cannot be fully controlled. light causes a washing out of the picture i.e blacks are grey. this is where grey screen as opposed to a white screen helps.

    projectors need calibration to different screens so it may that be you have not calibrated properly to the screen goo. i can't comment on how good screen goo is.

    when i was trying to find a suitable paint various paints were tested. it was found that S0907 and the crown paint were the closest replicas to the the USA version.
    have a read of this page:
    http://www.avforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=673357&page=14

    to mix the crown paint with AAA you would need to use a 3:1 ratio.
    this results in a slightly darker screen which would be ideal for use with brighter projectors ( i have 1600 lumens projector which is fairly bright - hd65)

    you are right, the lumitec would help lighten the screen as long as you do not use more than 1 part otherwise the neutrality may disapppear.

    to complicate things further it was found that using crown, s0907 and AAA in a 2:2:1 ratio resulted in a mix which was very close to USA black widow. that was the initial aim.

    with regards to mixing, mech has found that you donot have to be accurate to ml so the mixing jug should be fine.

    please note that the mixes were only found late last week so i have not painted my screen yet. if the USA black widow is anything to go by we are on to a winner.

    you will need to recalibrate the brightness and contrast once you have painted.

    i can divulge further on how to paint the screen if you need me to.:devil:
     
  9. warbie

    warbie
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    Cheers :)

    I think i've got the painting down - the screen goo faq was very specific on how to apply the paint and feathering edges - so am just trying to decide on the right mix.

    My pj isn't a light cannon and at best quality puts out 500-700ish lumens, I think. There's 600 hours or so on the bulb too so it may well be less. Bearing that in mind, i'm tempted to go for the 2:2:1 close to USA black widow mix and add lumitec if the image needs more pop. Does this differ much from 4:1 AAA with S0907-y70r much btw? From what I gathered from your link these 3 mixes are much in the same.

    I think that's everything. I'll try and source the paints and give it a bash sometime during the week :thumbsup:
     
  10. custard10

    custard10
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    warbie - you may struggle abit with the lumen rating of your projector. we are currently testing a lighter aluminium (hycote) but have not yet achieved a completely neutral mix.

    the 2:2:1 mix and the 4:1 s0907 mix are very close as you can see from the figures in the posted link.
    i think that for yourself the route you are taking is probably the wisest option. the 2:2:1 mix is the best to use if you dont mind the outlay of buying the various paints as it is very neutral

    i would probably add the lumitec in straight away due to your projector. you can always paint over it with the darker mix if you need to later.

    the only drawback with the lumitec mix would be that you would have less aluminium in the mix.

    see how you go and keep me informed on your progress:hiya:
     
  11. warbie

    warbie
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    Will do :)

    I'm painting the ceiling grey and the walls a very dark, almost black, brown, in the hope that this will help somewhat with the lumen output. If anything, the image is a touch too bright with my pulldown screen and with the screen goo screen it's almost blinding - the entire rooms lights up! - so there is a little room for compromise.

    I'm convinced that as a plain cream wall can give better results than these rather expensive solutions there must be a mix out there that will do the job. Infact, i'd be happy with the same performance the classic cream provides minus the browny/red tint it gives the image. Any other bonuses would be gravy :thumbsup:

    I'll update with pics if you don't mind once I get things rolling and thanks again,

    Warb
     
  12. custard10

    custard10
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    warbie - it will be good to hear and see the feedback as i don't think i will be mixing for a week or 2. i am busy next weekend:(
     
  13. bobtex

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    PLEASE DO! I'm at a loss as to where to even start! I haven't even put a screen together yet. What should I make it out of? Wood? What material do I put on it? Canvas? Cloth?

    How do I mix the paint? How do I actually apply it?

    I have a million questions as you can see, so I'd appreciate ANY input you have! But go easy, I don't really know what I'm doing!

    Thanks!
     
  14. martin purnell

    martin purnell
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    Bobtex,
    regarding screen making, I have the info on how to make a cheap yet "utterly brilliant" screen! Check out Paints Brews Mixes III thread. It's fairly early on in this tome! I included photos plus links to JacksonArt who supplied me with the extra fine primed canvass at a price that was around £20-25 inc p and p, I think. They offered a very good service esp as I now live in Northern Ireland. Bizarrely, the AutoAirAluminium paint was obtainable 30 miles away from where I live!
    The people in Ballymena who stock the AAA paint are the sole distributors for all of Europe. They were extremely helpful and having visited their place to purchase the paint, are now aware that others will want to buy their product. I think Custy bought it from them.
    Other tips on how to paint the screen is all in the above thread. 2 coats will be needed, and a complete roller kit from the likes of BandQ can be obtained for about a fiver. I would strongly recommend that you use the roller that looks like a sheepskin rather than the cylindrical smooth foam. You need to get into all the weaves of the canvass and the foam one doesn't do this.
    I actually got the timber, canvass etc and a mate who knows which way to hold a saw/hammer did the rest! Painting will take about 15 mins and 12 hours to dry.
    Extra fine canvass means that the weave is superior but also there are less nodules on the surface and will appear totally flat from just a couple of feet away. Primed means that you don't have to oil/season the canvass to stop it from leaking paint. It's ready to rock n roll basically!
    In fact, I think that covers everything minus the pictures on what my screen looks like (taken during the build process as well).
    Custy, Mech and I have done all the hard work in getting this info made available to all in the UK and beyond! It really is worth the effort especially as Custy has given us the codes for Johnstone Paints to make the mix minus the AAA. Heck, I might even repaint my screen now but am really impressed with what the AAA did to my 4:1 mix with the Lumitec. It really does make the blacks blacker which was my original goal. Any futher questions, please let us know. I'm sure that Mech, Custy (as he is now known) or I will have an answer or two!
    Kind regards,

    Martin
     
  15. custard10

    custard10
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    i painted a sample with lumitec added in yesterday and it seems to block the aluminium slightly. my advice is don't use the lumitec for now
     
  16. custard10

    custard10
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    it looks like martin has answered your question for me. the only thing i might add is that in america they are using a 2 roller technique to even the paint layer out. hopefully mech may expand abit further on this for us.
     
  17. martin purnell

    martin purnell
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    A 2 roller technique? I missed that info Custy! Well spotted. I can only assume the 2 roller technique is like preparing the wicket in cricket! You use a heavy roller but a light roller is also available should the captain want it used! I need to know now! Where's Mech when you need him?!
    Martin
     
  18. mech

    mech
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    Sorry fellas! No. No two roller technique needed! That's the lunacy of an individual who tends to make things a bit more difficult than they should be! ;) We've long suspected the sky to be something other than blue in his world. I could go on and on about said individual but I feel I've already wasted too much of my time! :eek:

    The general advise has always been two coats of primer on your substrate and then 3 rolled coats of Black Widow. The main thing you want to avoid is roller marks. If you keep the toe of the roller on the previously rolled side and you don't put too much pressure on the roller, you should be fine.

    For the Roof Coating version of Black Widow (HE-558 BW), you needed to incorporate back rolling as it was a leafing aluminum and it was needed to align the flakes properly. AAA is not a leafing aluminum and requires no back rolling.

    For anyone who will be spraying, you'll need to add water to the mix. Somewhere between 10-20% depending upon your gun. I'm presently spraying mine as we speak. Six coats yesterday and a bump on the trip inside is adding two more today! :eek:

    I'm going to be adding the UKBW mix at the Shack soon! :smashin:

    mech
     
  19. mech

    mech
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    One more thing to add is that we use low nap roller covers. 1/4 inch nap or something like 6 or 7 mm if your metric there. You may want to vacuum the roller cover a few times as well to remove any loose material that may end up on your screen.

    mech
     
  20. custard10

    custard10
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    that person would not be tiddler would it :D
     
  21. mech

    mech
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    His reputation precedes him! ;) Some day wbassett and myself may make public all of the emails and pms we've gotten from him. It'd make a great thesis for a psychology student! :smashin:

    There's quite a bit going on at avs that most folks don't know about. Such as the DIY Screen forum being moderated by someone who sells screen paint commercially. AVS is a place where one has to sift judiciously for good info, as the majority is poor! :eek:

    OK, back to topic! :oops:

    mech
     
  22. custard10

    custard10
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    added image of reflective aluminium to first post:)
     
  23. spaceman763

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    Hi All

    Hope someone can help. This Black Widow stuff seems really promising. I am currently projecting onto a plain white wall but find the whites very bright. I have read that an ND2 Filter will help me in this regard. My question is whether I can use an ND2 filter on my HD65 and still use Black Widow? Will the filter negate the benefits of the paint?

    Regards
     
  24. Fusion5a

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    Hi,

    I have a few questions if you can help at all.

    Firstly I intend to paint the whole wall with this mix as opposed to making a screen. I will be purchasing a Mitsubishi HC600 and was thinking of going down the 2:2:1 route to get closest to the black widow.

    As you have given the codes for the Leyland mix that should be pretty straight forward for me to get as will the AAA I hope.

    How can I obtain the crown mix though? Can I get this mixed in my local B & Q or will I have to get it from a paint specialist?

    Also I intend to put an undercoat of magnetic paint before I apply this mix as I want to use magnetic borders (similar to Vogels mighty brighty pack) when I want to watch a movie and then take them off afterwards. Will this affect the overlying mix at all do you think?

    Any info will be much appreciated.

    Regards
     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2008
  25. mech

    mech
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    Spaceman - there will be no need for a ND2 filter if you go with Black Widow. :smashin:

    Fusion - you'll have to wait for custy as I'm unsure of where to acquire paints in the UK. As for the magnetic coat, I know I'll be extremely interested in how that turns out! As long as you do three coats though, I'd guess the magnetic coat will not effect the BW. Is this a masking that will be removed at times? If so be careful when putting it up and taking it down as this is paint. :smashin:

    mech
     
  26. spaceman763

    spaceman763
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    Thanks mech.... looks like this black widow stuff will be perfect. I am currently using a plain matt white wall for a screen and although it has been okay I feel a serious need to improve my current set-up.

    I have found some triple black velvet cloth at £4.75 a metre but this will not be in stock until mid July. As my ceiling and walls are directly adjacent to the 'screen' I get washedout images so the black velvet should help in this regard.

    Until I get the velvet I thought i could make a start on painting my wall. Having read this thread and also the PB&M III thread I am still slightly confused as to what the optimum mix is. I am using an Optoma HD65 and have a small screen image of about 77 inches causing very bright whites. Could someone please help with the following questions?

    Is the 4:1 (s0907 and AAA) mix or the 2:2:1 (crown, s0907 & AAA) mix better for me? If its the latter where do i get the crown paint from as I am living in London and i read the mix was done in Walsall?

    Second question is whether or not the actual wall needs to be prepared with a primer. If the light from the PJ will only touch the BW paint before being reflected then presumably the primer would not be of any use?

    Lastly, how does Black Widow paint on a plain wall compare with using a Blackout Blind as a screen?

    Regards
     
  27. custard10

    custard10
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    the paint can only be mixed by crown so would need to locate your nearest crown trade centre at http://www.historic-colours.co.uk/en/Colour/Colour+zone/
    they should be able to mix the paint but will need to contact this branch to get the recipe. the paint mix is stored under my name - Mr. Tai

    CROWN DECORATING CENTRE
    Unit 1, Day Street
    Walsall, WS2 8EJ
    tel: 01922 628580
    fax: 01922 628673

    i will be going to this centre in the next few days to pick up some of the mix for myself so i will see if i can get it added to their national database to make it easier to acquire :)

    FYI there is not much of a difference between the s0907 mix and the 2:2:1 mix.
     
  28. mech

    mech
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    First you'd better keep that ND2 filter! I didn't realize your screen was this small! :eek: The HD65, when set in Cinema and low lamp mode kicks out 419 lumens. And your screen is only 17.9 square feet giving you 23 foot lamberts of brightness. This is using gain of 1.0. Black Widow is more than likely less than 1.0 but it hasn't been measured yet.

    If it's easiest to get s0907, than just go with the 4:1 version of s0907. :smashin:

    If the wall holds the paint then you can skip the priming. But you may need three coats for good coverage. custy painted his whole wall and can give you a good idea how much paint you'd need.

    Do you mean black out cloth? BOC is more of a white screen. Black Widow is a dark gray screen with a touch of gain added via the aluminum.

    mech
     
  29. spaceman763

    spaceman763
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    Cheers Mech for the reply, much appreciated and thanks given. :thumbsup:

    Yes I have a very small screen size as I am limited by the size of my loft. I still prefer this to say a 50inch plasma as I really enjoy the cinematic experience and can also enlarge the image when watching a movie in 2.35:1. Have not bought the ND2 yet but will get one off ebay soon. Does anyone know the difference between an ND2 and an ND4 filter?

    I'll get the S0907 next week as there is a Leyland store just 2 miles away. The 4:1 ratio also means i can get away with just one 180ml bottle of AAA so can save a few pounds.

    I was tempted to try BOC but having read through the Black Widow threads I'll give the paint a try instead. Give me a few weeks and I'll put my pictures up on this thread... just waiting to get the Black Velvet from a local wholesaler. Damn thing was so hard to find and once found it is out of stock for 3 more weeks!!

    Regards
     
  30. mech

    mech
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    Spaceman,

    I'd hold off on the ND2 until you try out Black Widow. You never know, you may find everything is just fine. I know that the recommended foot lamberts for movie theaters (at the screen) is 12-22 fL. So you're pretty close.

    A ND2 filter reduces the f-stop by 1 and a ND4 reduces it by 2. This means the ND4 is darker than the ND2. :smashin:

    mech
     
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