DIY 2.35:1 Scope Screen Help/Advice?

Discussion in 'Projectors, Screens & Video Processors' started by mkohman, Jul 17, 2018.

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Which format?

Poll closed Jul 27, 2018.
  1. 2.35:1

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  2. 2.39:1

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  1. mkohman

    mkohman
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    Hi guys,

    After many years of contemplating I have decided that I want to take the plunge into the scope screen experience amongst many fellow forum members on here who have already been enjoying the ultra wide cinema experience for some time :).

    When I built my cinema setup a few years back I built a false wall in order to house my LCR speakers behind an AT screen. I love the AT screen experience. Having sound coming from behind the screen rather than around it is an experience on it's own and wouldn't really have anything less now..

    I currently have a 120" 16:9 AT screen and only use my viewing for 4K movies etc which are all mainly 2.35:1 or 2.39:1 aspect ratio. This means in my 16:9 screen I will always see black bars on top and bottom. 90% of movies now are mainly in this format too.

    I have a JVC projector and have been playing around with zooming out a bit and seeing how much more screen real estate I could get if I were to go scope. So, it turns out I will have 18" total in width and 10" total in height more when actually viewing a 2.35:1 movie. This just blew my mind and made me wonder why I never went this format in the first place.

    Now I am looking to sell my 16:9 AT screen and building a DIY scope screen.

    There are a few things I need to ask and would be grateful if you guys could please help me out :)

    This is my first screen build so here are a few questions:

    1 - Should I use 4 x 1 timber or 4 x 2 timber when building the screen and why?

    2 - What is the best AT screen material to use without breaking the bank. I think I may already know the answer to this.. is it Film-ex? sold by @Jag @ Epic Home Cinema or is there another material which is now better or maybe Jag himself can kindly advise.. Maybe he has a new material now?

    3 - Is the Kreg Jig the best way to assemble the timbers together?

    4 - In this video the guy uses a black spandex for bottom layer then one layer of AT screen material. Is this recommended or is it better to just use 2 x layers of AT screen material?

    5 - In order to get max screen width, I was thinking of doing a scope screen without borders and then having black velvet panels on the top and bottom of the screen.. or is it recommended to slightly sacrifice the screen size and have maybe 2 or 4 inch velvet borders on the left and right sides too?

    6 - Which actual format is recommended to build? 2.35:1 , 2:39:1 or 2.40:1 and why?

    Apologies for all the questions but I want to make sure I am going in the right direction and trust you guys to point me to that direction in order for me to build the best screen that I can..

    I will try to show you guys what I mean with pictures below.. This is my current screen as can be seen mounted with a bracket to the existing false wall. if you look at this picture you will see that the screen border is 4" and then you have a further 5" or false wall on each side, so in total it makes 9" each side and 18" in total in terms of wideness if I went edge to edge. The first couple of pictures shows the current setup and the very last one which is a scene from Deadpool
    show the image being zoomed out as if to show how much bigger it would with the extra 9" inches either side and the image being 10" in height.. In reality it is so much more immersive but you can not really tell this in the pictures..Finally, all your help and advises are greatly appreciated and I look forward to some great tips and ideas :) Thank you.

    IMG_20180121_180921343.jpg IMG_20180329_231427310.jpg IMG_20180625_011510305.jpg IMG_20180717_012606357.jpg
     
  2. Peter Parker

    Peter Parker
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    It's the only way to fly. Well, almost, but I'll get to that later :)*

    I tend to agree, plus I like to only have the screen visible, with no speakers etc on show so only the movie is in view - no distractions or reflections etc.

    I think it's a kind of madness that is eventually cured by copious amounts of visits to forums :D


    Either will do, but the 4x2 will be more sturdy, though probably overkill. I've used 120mm x 18mm with no problems - for lengths longer than 2.4m you can use another piece behind glued and screwed to make the join stronger. For my current screen I used 38mm x 68mm CLS and you can get that in 3m lengths. Although I'm happy with it, CLS can be a bit twisty turny so not the best IMHO. With your screen width (almost 123 inches, 311cm) you're going to need to make a join unless you specifically want to do it in a single piece so will need to find some timber that comes in longer lengths. I think joining will be fine.

    I think so too. I'm using two layers of spandex but t does have some moire on the occasional bright scene - Filmex doesn't do that. However, if you use one layer of black with one layer of white, you'll get a slightly dimmer image (say 0.7 gain vs 0.8) but no moire.

    It does a good job, but so will using a second piece behind. It depends on whether or not you want to double the thickness. if you use 1 inch thick timber, then it only becomes two. If you use 2, then 4" may seem a bit much, though you can probably use 1inch for the joins.

    It's up to you, but unless you know you're not going to get the moire effect with two layers of an untested spandex, you may want to go white over black or Filmex.

    I've done that, but my velvet covered side walls are the side masking too. I would put black velvet behind the screen on the screen wall so that any overspill is absorbed. My first screen was like that and it worked well.

    I think 2.40:1 because 2.35 is taller and the extra height will be hidden in the velvet above and below the image when viewed on a 2.4 screen. If you went 2.35 you will get small black bars with 2.40 movies. It's easy enough to zoom the 2.4 to fit the 2.35 and lose the width on the side/wall velvet though. The advantage of a taller 2.35 screen is that 1.85 will be slightly larger. I sit pretty close and my seating distance is set by the screen height.

    *One other option is if you can make a 16:9 screen that is the same width as the scope screen you want to make, but you mask it down to 2.40.1. When you watch an aspect changing movie like TDK, you can remove the top and bottom masking. You will need a 69 inch tall screen (122.6 inch wide) to be able to do that though.

    That then becomes CIH + IMAX. There are a few of us doing that but so far in the 18 months I've had this system, I've only watched two movies that I needed to do that with.

    HTH
     
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    Last edited: Jul 17, 2018
  3. The Dreamer

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    Just my thoughts.....

    1. Depends on how you're mounting the screen. If you want to hang it from cleats etc. then a whole bunch of 2x4s is going to weigh a ton, and I'd go with 1x4s or 1x3s (I assume you'll be building a 'braced' screen, i.e. with a couple of vertical supports either side of your centre channel).

    2. Can't comment on Jag's screen material - though I know Jag wouldn't sell anything that wasn't decent. I used Seymour AV's UF material - they will ship in a small box to save shipping costs, rather than their standard tube - this does mean it's folded, but it's easily ironed flat. I think it cost me $13 per linear foot, + shipping.

    3. Kreg Jig or similar (I bought the Wolfcraft version, as it was cheaper - https://www.amazon.co.uk/Wolfcraft-...id=1531825725&sr=8-5&keywords=pocket+hole+jig) works well, but it's glue that gives the joint it's strength, so I apply woodglue (regular stuff) to all the joints, and use the jig and pocket screws to get it all aligned properly.

    4. Opinions are divided on this. Using a black second AT layer, instead of a white second layer, will reduce the brightness of the image, but equally, it has been said it will give a sharper image. I have no opinion either way, as I just use a single layer.

    5. This'll come down to personal preference. The walls either side of the screen will reflect light, whichever way you choose to go. If you really want to maximise width, go for it - just put some Devore along the side walls to cut down the reflections - equally valid even if you do put a border up.

    6. Assuming you're not going to zoom between the three widescreen formats, I'd go for the 2.40:1. That way, your image is always going right up to the edge of your screen, and the overspill, top & bottom, for the 2.39 and 2.35 images is going to be miniscule. e.g. on a 2.4m wide 2.40:1 screen, a 2.35 image will have just 2cm of overspill, so 1cm top and 1cm bottom - no detail worth worrying about is ever going to be there! Even on a 5m wide screen, the overspill is less than an inch, top & bottom, and I've never seen an AVF member with a screen that big!

    As I say, just my thoughts...

    edit: Crossed with Gary, but it seems we're thinking roughly the same....
     
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  4. mkohman

    mkohman
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    @Peter Parker and @The Dreamer thank you so much for all your valuable input.. Makes complete sense what your advising .. Today I have decided to build a screen which will be inside the recessed area of my false wall . So basically, I built a false wall to house my speakers and I built like a huge frame around the wall which is 4" thick on left and right, bottom and top and 4" deep as can be seen in pictures below..

    If I build my screen within inside the recessed area I will have 7" extra width each side, so 14" extra wide overall of my current screen . It will be a white screen without black borders and the borders will actually be the other frame which is 4" either side which I'll cover with black velvet... Do you think this is a good idea? If I went with this then the total screen width would be 117" which is 297cm wide so almost 3 meters wide... If I went all the way and used the 4" outer frames too it would then be 4" more either side so, 125" which is 317cm..although I think option 1 using 4" outer frame as borders for the screen may look more professional, however I will be loosing 8" extra width.. What's your thoughts on this @Peter Parker and @The Dreamer?

    If I built an all white borderless 2.39:1 screen within inside the outer frame of the false wall I will have approx 17" above and approx 5" below my screen which will also need black velvet to cover the area.. Would it be better to use sticky back velvet felt type of product or is there a cheaper option.. Or is it reccomended build a panel out of 4 x 1 for the top and bottom too to make it same level as the screen which will be hung with a cleet cut in 45 degree angle..

    Sorry for so many questions just want to make sure I'm doing this the correct way .

    Finally is there a tool or formula to help me find my screen height for 2.39 if my width is 117" (297cm)..?

    I think the diagonal image will be around 135" scope screen but need some kind of tool to make the measurements otherwise I can play a movie I guess mark it out on the outer frame of the false wall then measure that?

    Please see pictures below which will hopefully make more sense of what I have said above . There is also a picture I am including to show the area behind the screen.. Thank you again for all your help, always appreciated
     

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  5. Peter Parker

    Peter Parker
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    I'm not very good at visualising things like that, but I'd be inclined to go for as much width as possible if the seating is fixed. As Dreamer mentioned earlier, the closer to the walls the screen is the stronger the reflections are going to be (affecting ANSI CR), but in this case I don't think 3 or 4 inches is going to make a big difference in that respect, but the added 6 to 8 inches extra screen size may offset that. How far back do you sit from the screen?

    What will you stick the velvet to? I made some frames up using something like 10 or 12mm thick battening (may even have been door rebate stuff from Wickes) and stretched and stapled some black velvet over it, much the same way as you attach the screen material to the frame (stretched and stapled to around to the back of the frame). Not sure how that works out cost wise, but it's probably not as permanent as the sticky back stuff. You can use velcro or interference fit to hold it in place.

    Just divide the width by the screen ratio, so 117 divided by 2.39 = 48.95 (49 will be fine)

    If the frame is 117 x 49, just make sure the diagonals are identical so you know it's all square. 117 wide 2.39 is 126.75 diagonal so 2.40 should be close to that.

    Hope I've understood what you're asking, but if I've not, just tell me and I'll have another go :)
     
  6. mattkhan

    mattkhan
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    Fwiw I haven't built it yet but this is how I plan to do it (includes links to materials I plan to buy and the velvet wrapped border)

    Materials for DIY Projector Screen

    Edit: probably would have helped if I included the link!
     
  7. mkohman

    mkohman
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    Thank you that makes sense.. I didn't know it was that simple by simply dividing 117" by the aspect ratio , in this case 2.4 :) Thanks!

    Well I sit approx 5.5 meters away from the screen so every inch does matter really but I don't think it's a huge difference.. The only issue I would have if I went over the other frame (i.e flush with the outer frame) the right side of the wall is open plan type so I would have to do something to hide the side of the screen as it would look like a picture frame hanging on the wall and possibly not pleasing to the eye where as if I did it within the outer 4" frame of the false wall then everything will be sunk within inside this wall so it will all be engraved into the wall giving a much more pleasing aesthetic and I can also put velvet to the side 4" lip on the right and left hand side as well as the top and the bottom of the scope screen.

    Apologies if this is not making any sense at all but please have a look at the pictures in my previous post.. hopefully that would clear it up a little more .. Thanks :)
     
  8. mkohman

    mkohman
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    Thank you for your in depth reply.. I like the idea of using wood glue on joints which is what I was intending on doing however I also like the "Hurricane Brackets" being used in the video of my first post of this thread.. Do you know if we can buy this or something similar to this in the UK please?

    what your saying makes perfect sense.. I think 2.4:1 probably is the overall best option for all the scope formats.. What do you think of my idea building in within inside the outer frame rather than going over it? If I went the full width (over the outer lip of the falls wall then I have an issue with the look of it when looking at it from the right side as it would look like a picture frame, however if I build a borderless 2.4:1 screen within inside the 4" outer lips of the false wall then it will be like a floating screen recessed inside the false wall 1" apart from the black velvet material behind it of that makes sense.. ? Yes I will be missing out on the extra 8 inches overall wider picture but I think 297 cm almost 3m wide screen is a lot better than what I currently have and will look smarter recessed into the false wall.. What's your thoughts? Thanks
     
  9. mkohman

    mkohman
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    Thanks @mattkhan are you also looking to build a scope screen? What size and have you decided wether your going for 2.35 , 2.39 or 2.4 ? Thanks :)
     
  10. Peter Parker

    Peter Parker
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    I've had a closer look at your pictures, and I think it could work either way - if you make the screen borderless so that it just fits inside your box and flush either side with the box or the added velvet frames you may add, you just make up some velvet frames that will fill the gaps top and bottom and sit on top/under the screen. They can be lightweight and don't have to be made from 4 x 1:

    I made velvet frames using 12mm x 32mm x 2.4m timber. To make longer lengths, I glued and butted the ends together and stapled them. I did the same from cross brasses so the whole frame remained 12mm + velvet thick. Once the glue is dry and wrapped in velvet they're strong enough to hang. You can use screws with larger pieces of battening.

    Or you can have a larger screen so that it fits onto the front of the box and make some velvet frames top and bottom that will fit up to the frame - the two sides may only need to be something that is 1" x 1" to balance and tidy up the visible side perhaps. My first borderless screen was just wrapped blackout cloth and the edges didn't look too bad, but they didn't have an open side to the room which would allow a better view. Later I just made a simple velvet frame that would slide over the whole screen like a ring.
     
  11. mkohman

    mkohman
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    Yes you definitely got it now .. Which option would you recommend for me? I think option 1 would look more professional and I would necessarily need to build additions velvet frames as I could easily buy some self adhesive velvet and stick it on the wall panel behind the screen . That way the screen will be pretruding an inch from the velvet back wall but still be within the 4" deep recess wall giving it almost a floating illusion effect .

    Option two will definitely give me an additional 8 inch width I overall image width but I then have to build two additional frames (velvet) for top and bottom of the screen and consider how I I am going to make it look nice when you approach it from the right hand side if that makes sense .
     
  12. Peter Parker

    Peter Parker
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    If you went the larger route, the right hand side would be tidied up with a piece of say 1" x 1" wrapped in velvet (or whatever size is needed to hide the side) that could be a nice fit between the top and bottom velvet or velcro'd into place. Do the same on the other side just for balance.

    Another thought - even with the added width of your scope screen, your 1.85 movies are going to be a fair bit smaller than they were. They're meant to be less wide than scope, but ideally you want them to be the same height as they were with the 120" screen which was 58.8". Even with a 117" wide 2.39 screen, the height will be 49 inches. so noticeably smaller. Of course, if most of your movies are scope, you gain more than you lose.
     
  13. mkohman

    mkohman
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    Thank you . I like that idea but I won't be able to do that to the left side as it is butted up to the wall as can be seen in attached pictures .

    I thought about this a lot but I don't watch TV shows or any old movies.. I always watch latest 4K movies which are all scope so I will definitely be gaining . The only thing I will loose out will be the multi format movies like TDK etc which has imax scenes . I just think the scope screen with no visible black bars is far more immersive than the 16:9 format .
    IMG_20180717_211132319.jpg IMG_20180717_211158305.jpg IMG_20180717_211218047.jpg
     
  14. mattkhan

    mattkhan
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    Yes I am building one just as soon as I get a few other jobs out of the way. Mine will come in at about 2.4 albeit there is 5mm in height between 2.39 and 2.4 so I can't say I'm sweating the difference there :) particularly given that I will be using a lens so will be overscanning slightly anyway. I can't say I'm that fussy about a precise fit onto the screen anyway really.
     
  15. mkohman

    mkohman
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    @Peter Parker I like the idea you gave me about having an inch wide 1 x 1 felt covered timber either side.. It will work and i zoomed out 2 inches so over all the picture (screen) would be 121.5 inches wide and approx 51 inches tall.. Here I took some photos to help show what I mean.. Overall the picture will be 9 inches wider either side so 18 inches in total wider which is huge . The last picture I show is over exposed a little to give you an understanding of the extra width . It's the same on the left side of the screen but because I took the pictures from a right hand angle you can only see the extra 9 inches to the right in this picture ..
    IMG_20180717_221946000.jpg IMG_20180717_222044282.jpg IMG_20180717_222047447.jpg
     
  16. Peter Parker

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    Cool :)

    I was going to suggest that you could even use something like a 4x1 or however deep it needs to be (covered in velvet) to cover the side of the screen back to the wall, but if a 1x1 works, all well and good :)

    I guess it doesn't even need to be that thick as it's just a covering panel to hide the gap and make good.

    Whatever you do, scope should now look more impressive from where you sit and being 51 ins tall is getting closer to what you had with the 16:9 screen.
     
  17. mkohman

    mkohman
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    Matt.. what screen material will you be using please? Filmex or something else? Are you planning on using black spandex for the first layer then an AT material on top? Thanks
     
  18. mattkhan

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    I have a large roll of seymour centre stage xd material to use. I'm not sure if my seating distance will be ideal for this material but someone was generous enough to give me the material so I'm using it anyway.
     
  19. mkohman

    mkohman
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    That's brilliant .... Is the seymour better than film ex? What gain is the seymour? I may need to look into buying that material too.. I am guessing that it needs to be imported from the states ..
     
  20. 3rdignis

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    Try moving image down, with scope, image would be even nearer to eye level and may feel more comfortable.
    If you go for maximum width, then want a border, velvet tape creates a sharp edge.
     
  21. mkohman

    mkohman
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    Do you have any links to the velvet tapes please.. Possibly 1 or 2 inch thickness .

    Also can someone here please advise me the best types of AT screen materials which won't break the bank.. I am considering filmex and Seymour XD material but I'm not sure how I can purchase the Seymour as it is USA based . Thanks
     
  22. Peter Parker

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    XD has one of the highest gains for an AT material which is always useful for larger screens, and you can contact them directly via their website - I've linked you to their store page so you can see prices.:

    Seymour AV | Store

    UF is finer and more suitable for closer seating distances (11ft is around as close as they recommend for XD so you'll be fine for that). UF has less gain but I don't know how it compares to Spandex. It's possibly similar.

    Filmex and other Spandex based materials will have less gain but are cheaper and easier to buy - two layers of Spandex may cost as little as around £40 if you buy 6 meters. Filmex is around £20 a meter but is proven to work with no moire etc. You may only need 2.5m per layer.

    If you're doing white over black Spandex, ask for some samples from Tia Knight or your local haberdashers and see which white ones seem to be the most suitable. I think any black will do so that doesn't have to be as expensive as the white. I don't know what a single layer of Filmex is like with black, but a cheap black Spandex with a layer of Filmex might be a workable option. Give Jag a message or two to see what he says.
     
  23. mkohman

    mkohman
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    Thank you so much for the great help and advice.. I will drop Jag a message see what he thinks ... Thank you
     
  24. mkohman

    mkohman
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    Thanks for the tips.. I have managed to speak with Jag and whilst he advised filmex was a good screen, very good for value, however recommended that if I wanted high end and budget wasn't an issue, I should go with the Seymour XD screen. I have made some enq, and was quoted, $325 + delivery so I am guessing with delivery and vat+tax I am probably looking to be paying around just over £400 instead of £120 for the Filmex. That is indeed a big difference in price. I sit approx. 5.5 meters away from my screen.. All I need to know really is at that distance will there really be a noticeable difference between the Filmex and the Seymour Excellence XD and which one would you guys reccomend? Thanks.

    Also here is where I am at in building the screen area for the 2.39:1 screen.. It will basically be plasterboard and skimmed then the screen will be built and hung within inside the 4" void.

    IMG_20180719_183815055.jpg
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2018
  25. Peter Parker

    Peter Parker
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    The XD gain is closer to one, and Filmex/Spandex is probably closer to 0.8. Weave won't be visible from your seating distance with the XD. I think they're going to look much the same other than brightness from where you sit.

    I guess it all depends on if you use HDR and want as much brightness as you can get, or if you're happy with SDR.

    For the brightest image, XD would be the best choice, otherwise go for Filmex or Spandex.

    If brightness isn't such an issue, the cheapest option would be a single layer of white spandex over a layer of black - could be around £21 for 3m of the white spandex, plus the cost for 3m of black. Two layers of white spandex would be around £42. I used Q56 WHT from Tia knight fabrics £6.99 a meter.

    Next option could be one layer of Filmex over a layer of black - £60 plus whatever the black costs.

    Then Filmex at £120 for two layers of white.

    You'll probably need something like 1000 actual lumens which will give you enough brightness for 14fL using Spandex for your size screen. You can go for less and not really notice it unless you prefer brighter images.

    I'm using two layers of Q56 white and I get some occasional moire in brighter scenes, so white over black would eliminate that, but other than that it works fine and the material looks like a solid surface.

    There are a few threads of people using Spandex and Filmex for their screens, so you might want to have a read of those and see what the general feeling is.
     
  26. mkohman

    mkohman
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    Thanks for all your help. I am pretty sure I am going to go for the seymour.. I am only going to do this once and want it to be the best . also I have spent so much on the projector and time and effort in the setup that its pointless to cheap out on the screen material .. thanks for all the advice you have given along the way.. Ill post an update once finalised ... Thank you :)
     
  27. Peter Parker

    Peter Parker
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    So you're going for a 121.5" x 51" screen?

    I have some XD material that I was going to use before I changed my plans and went CIH+IMAX so I never used it. I don't think it is as big as you need, but I'll check it and measure it to see if it's enough for your screen, and let you know. Probably tomorrow or Sunday - it's still on a roll in it's tube so I need to take it out and unroll it etc. It'll be a lot cheaper than £400 if you're interested (via the classifieds here of course).

    edit: Looking at the sale thread where I bought it from, it was used for a 120 inch 2.40:1 screen.
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2018
  28. mkohman

    mkohman
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    Cheers sounds like a plan.. My screen will be 117" x 49"..I will need at least 4" extra on either end so I would need minimum 125" x 57" of material..

    Couple of questions if you don't mind...

    Have you purchased the material directly from seymour or someone on the forums?

    How long have you had it for?

    Has it been cut with a 20 degree angle to eliminate moire effect?

    Thank you and look forward to your reply...
     
  29. Peter Parker

    Peter Parker
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    I bought it from a forum member here about 4 or 5 years ago and hasn't been off the roll since, but I'll take it out and check it for size etc. I'll find the original sale link and post it if you think you'd be interested in buying. The material had been used to make a 120inch wide 2.40 screen and I only needed 104, but I'll have to see if it has the extra you want.
     
  30. mkohman

    mkohman
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    Thanks for that.. I don't think it will be suitable as my screen will be 127" diagonal, however you never know.. there may be extra material.. In any case I need 125" wide and 57" tall for the screen material . If this is the case then it is good for me.. Would appreciate it if you could unroll and check when you get a chance.. Thanks :)
     

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