1. Join Now

    AVForums.com uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Disapointed with my Pioneer AX5i

Discussion in 'AV Receivers & Amplifiers' started by Bristol Pete, Mar 26, 2005.

Tags:
  1. Bristol Pete

    Bristol Pete
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2002
    Messages:
    5,577
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    106
    Location:
    Bristol.
    Ratings:
    +321
    hi,

    Having moved home recently I have finally managed to set up my pioneer ax5, partnered with a Pioneer 868, with all of my sound going through i-link.

    However, I am dispointed in it to be honest. It does not seem anywhere near as good as the Denon 2805 I sold to get this. :suicide:

    It seems to really lack bass. :confused:

    I have four stand mounted american acoustic speakers with built in sub woofers and they drop to 26hz however, the lack of bass is very annoying. I am going around in circles trying to set it up and its getting close to going out the window. All speakers are set to large, with no sub.

    Any advice?

    Cheers,

    Pete.
     
  2. russraff

    russraff
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2000
    Messages:
    2,315
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    51
    Location:
    Newcastle
    Ratings:
    +51
    Have you done the usual stuff, like checking the speakers aren't wired out of phase and such like. Try setting up the speakers and other settings without the MCACC feature to see if this is the culprate.

    Russell
     
  3. rOAdeh

    rOAdeh
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2003
    Messages:
    602
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Winchester
    Ratings:
    +5
    From your post you make it sound like you didn't hear the 2805 in the same room as the Pioneer? Given the amount of high praise for the Pioneer on these boards could it be more to do with room nodes etc rather than the Pioneer's own failings?
     
  4. russraff

    russraff
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2000
    Messages:
    2,315
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    51
    Location:
    Newcastle
    Ratings:
    +51
    Yeah, could be. Especially if in the old room the main speakers were corner placed and now they aren't. However, if the Pioneer has been set up by the automated system, then perhaps the EQ has thined out the sound. I say this as Denon's tend to be warmer, more "full" sounding than Pioneers which are brightrer and more forward. If Pete is used to the Denon house sound, perhaps the automated setup, combined with the Pioneers brighter balance, is making him think therte is less bass???
     
  5. Bristol Pete

    Bristol Pete
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2002
    Messages:
    5,577
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    106
    Location:
    Bristol.
    Ratings:
    +321
    Interesting;

    Have been tweaking some more. Better, but still preferred the Denon in 'Front' mode.

    However, I get the feeling that the Pioneer needs to be driven at rather high volumes for it to really sing, which I cannot do at present.

    The Denon was definately warmer. To me the Pioneer is bright and forward and reminds me of my first Sony DD/DTS amp.

    I will continue to tweak it and see how it goes - oh, and thanks for reminding me that the room could be affecting the sound.

    Thanks so far,

    Pete :)
     
  6. Daneel

    Daneel
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2002
    Messages:
    2,822
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    68
    Location:
    London
    Ratings:
    +26
    There isn't a really a could there. Along with your speakers, the room has the biggest effect on sound.
     
  7. Tejstar

    Tejstar
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2002
    Messages:
    22,514
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    London
    Ratings:
    +1,005
    Is this the ax5ai, or ax5i as the title suggests? I was under the impression you bought the newer version?
     
  8. Bristol Pete

    Bristol Pete
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2002
    Messages:
    5,577
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    106
    Location:
    Bristol.
    Ratings:
    +321
    Yep, is the newer version :(

    Have to say not that impressed now.

    Why oh why cant I send the LFE to my main speakers like I could on my Sony and on my Denon. Just seems to lack bass overall. :suicide:

    Stupid really, £1000.00 for an amp that does not sound as good as my previous models. (to my ears).

    Pete.
     
  9. Kinch

    Kinch
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2005
    Messages:
    20
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    Ratings:
    +0
    I am also struggling to adjust to the "smooth" ax5 sound after my yamaha
    Whats bugging me is that it seems to have decided I don't need my sub and despite setting the sub settings to "Plus" I have yet to coax any noise out of it (all speakers are defined as large by mcacc) - I continue to mess about but any advice gratefully received

    Have I dreamt it or have I read it somewhere that maybe the sub only kicks in at volume levels approaching 0db

    I'm playing the intro to Saving Private Ryan - the sub used to go nuts on this with the yamaha - now; nothing

    cheers

    Kinch
     
  10. eviljohn2

    eviljohn2
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2002
    Messages:
    7,529
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    86
    Location:
    Near London.
    Ratings:
    +208
    Pete, have you got an SPL meter? You might have more luck trying to set your gear up manually than with the automated algorithms.

    Also, have you got a link for those speakers? The design of them sounds a bit unconventional which could definitely cause problems.
     
  11. Bristol Pete

    Bristol Pete
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2002
    Messages:
    5,577
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    106
    Location:
    Bristol.
    Ratings:
    +321
    Yep, same here I used Episode 2 which usually makes my windows shake. Now, nothing. It just sounds flat lifeless and a complete waste of money.

    The annoyance here is that my speakers have built in subs and usually sound superb.

    Now they dont yet I dont wanna have to buy subwoofers as I have four of the buggers already.

    By the way, according to the manual, PLUS actually takes more bass away from the main speakers....... :confused:

    Very frustrating.

    Pete.
     
  12. Bristol Pete

    Bristol Pete
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2002
    Messages:
    5,577
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    106
    Location:
    Bristol.
    Ratings:
    +321
  13. eviljohn2

    eviljohn2
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2002
    Messages:
    7,529
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    86
    Location:
    Near London.
    Ratings:
    +208
    Thanks, I remember reading about those when you first got them.

    Have you tried swapping your front pair around so that the side-facing drivers point outwards rather than inwards (or vice versa depending on how you've got them at the moment).

    Otherwise the only thing I can think of is tweak the bass management settings in the amp although there's a chance that it just isn't implementing well with large front speakers and no sub.
     
  14. russraff

    russraff
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2000
    Messages:
    2,315
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    51
    Location:
    Newcastle
    Ratings:
    +51
    Those look an awful lot like my NHT speakers I used to have. They reccommended that you point the bass drivers outwards, but I always found the opposite produced better bass.

    From what you are saying, it looks like a settings thing to me. I wonder if the manual is online...

    Russell
     
  15. russraff

    russraff
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2000
    Messages:
    2,315
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    51
    Location:
    Newcastle
    Ratings:
    +51
    On YES setting the sub reproduces all bass from LFE and any speaker set to SMALL, but not LARGE. Plus being that the sub delivers bass from both LFE, any speaker set to small and any of the front three speakers set to LARGE. The manual warns that if bass is coming from the main speakersand the sub, then they may both cancel each other out resulting in a lack of bass frequencies.
    If a sub isn't available, then set fronts to LARGE (biamped if poss) and others to SMALL with the Sub off. Am I reading this right?? :confused:

    Pete, do you have your front's biamped or the speaker terminals linked if not?

    Russell
     
  16. Daneel

    Daneel
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2002
    Messages:
    2,822
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    68
    Location:
    London
    Ratings:
    +26
    Kinch: Set all your speakes to small and the cross over to 80Hz, you should get plenty bass.

    Captain Benefit: I'm not sure what to tell you, the Pioneers are in no way lacking bass. I can only guess it is down to your room and speaker/listening position. Have you tried turning off EQ and running in direct mode? Sometimes MCACC can thin out the bass a little too much. I tend to tweak it using the custom settings.

    Double check your settings making sure the sub is set to off.
     
  17. Kinch

    Kinch
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2005
    Messages:
    20
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    Ratings:
    +0
    Hi thanks fotr the advice but I have a problem with that at a "philosophical" level since the speakers are not small!!

    Since last post I have raised the level of the sub from -10 (mcacc level) to +10 and also changed the Bass peak level from 80 to 40

    There are now distinctly louder rumblings from the sub.
    Don't know what George Martin would make of it though ;-)
    Have I really over-egged the pudding I wonder

    Cheers

    Kinch
     
  18. Daneel

    Daneel
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2002
    Messages:
    2,822
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    68
    Location:
    London
    Ratings:
    +26
    Do you want good bass or not?

    These are my front speakers, do they look small to you?

    [​IMG]

    I run them as small and cross at 80Hz.

    Raise the peak limiter on the sub to about -15. There should be no need to change increase the level the Pioneer sets the sub to, if anything it normally runs the sub a little hot. It can get the distance wrong thoough, often setting it too high as if the sub is furtehr away than it is.

    What are your sub and speakers by the way?
     
  19. Kinch

    Kinch
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2005
    Messages:
    20
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    Ratings:
    +0
    hi there - sorry didn't want to seem ungrateful for your advice- it just seemed to me that ther must be another way to skin a cat - I'm sitting here now listening to my setting and the sub is now waaaaaay too involved in the music - I will try your suggestions

    My sub is an entry-level aiwa plastic box - I have never really undertood the value-add of an expensive sub...

    My speakers are Tannoy mx3s(?) - bought them about 10 years ago so I forget their exact code - do you think these are letting down the amp? I feel that I never really get a sense of "being there" with them, even with cheats like PL II

    Just recently upgraded my dvd, amp and projector so still playing with the settings - will try your suggestions later tonight

    Cheers
    Kinch
     
  20. Daneel

    Daneel
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2002
    Messages:
    2,822
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    68
    Location:
    London
    Ratings:
    +26
    Sorry if I was a little harsh. :)

    Are these the speakers?

    http://www.pacificaudio.co.nz/tannoy/tannoy_mx3.html

    They look fine to me. To be honest, I loath entry level "subs". They are more like mid-woofers and produce very little useable output at the freqencies they should. You may well be better off switching the sub to off and running your fronts full range.

    Test everything out though and let your ears decide.
     
  21. Kinch

    Kinch
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2005
    Messages:
    20
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    Ratings:
    +0
    No worries
    Yes those are indeed the speakers
    You might well be right about the merits of my sub but I simply didn't like my amp deciding that it would leave it out without my permission especially since my old yamaha had been so keen on it

    In my ignorance though I had assumed one LF rumble is just as good as another - it is just a rumble no?

    In any event now that I know that I can coax it into life I can relax and safely ignore it if that is what my ears tell me to do.

    As a matter of curosity what basic (i.e not mad money) sub would you recommend then?

    Cheers
    Kinch
     
  22. Bristol Pete

    Bristol Pete
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2002
    Messages:
    5,577
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    106
    Location:
    Bristol.
    Ratings:
    +321
    I have the speaker wire connected to one set of binding posts, connectd in theory to the others with a gold interconnect.

    Pete.
     
  23. Daneel

    Daneel
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2002
    Messages:
    2,822
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    68
    Location:
    London
    Ratings:
    +26
    Define mad money. If rags still has it up for sale at £300, I can think of no better sub for the money than the SVS PB10.

    It is definitely not just rumble. The difference a good sub makes to music is significant, the difference it makes to movies is massive, just as big as moving from stereo to surround in my opinion. The sound becomes far more realistic, involving and emersive.
     
  24. Kinch

    Kinch
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2005
    Messages:
    20
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    Ratings:
    +0
    Daneel
    Thanks a lot for the information - having just wiped myself out buying the new gear I will have to wait a month or two before my next purchase but I will try and get a decent sub for home trial - maybe then I will see the light!

    I suspected that once I dipped a toe back into buying new stuff I'd end up changing everything - ignorance is definitetly bliss in A/V land

    Good luck with your bass Captain and sorry for hijacking your thread

    now my only rumbling are those of discontent :)

    Kinch
     
  25. Pollywoggle

    Pollywoggle
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2000
    Messages:
    1,442
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    51
    Location:
    South Shropshire
    Ratings:
    +81
    I know in Dixons they say that a sub is for those "low rumble effects" but a decent sub set up properly will transform your experience, its the difference between watching a film and being "in" it!
    As for Pioneer amps, I just purchased an earlier Pioneer, (2011) from a forum member and the bass is amazing so I hope Pete manages to sort it out soon. :smashin:
     
  26. Peachey

    Peachey
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2005
    Messages:
    29
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    Location:
    Kent
    Ratings:
    +0
    I don't know whether this will help you Captain, but I was also puzzled by the lack of base when I got the Pioneer. However, I stumbled across the need to set the Base Peak Level (mentioned by Kinch) almost by accident. I assume it's in the manual but I managed to miss it. Anyway, I have set the Base Peak Level to 18 (from the starting point of 80 which = no sound) and the difference is amazing. I have the crossover set to 80hz. Definitely no lack of bass now - the house vibrates :clap:
     
  27. Joe Fernand

    Joe Fernand
    Distinguished Member AVForums Sponsor

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2002
    Messages:
    24,254
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    The Borders
    Ratings:
    +2,571
    Hello Captain

    Definitely a set up issue - what happens in 'Stereo' mode?

    You should at least be able to 'prove' your going to get LF out of the system once you find which settings are messed up in the multi channel modes.

    I find the Centre channel often needs to be 'overridden' once you set up via MCACC with the AX5i.

    Best regards

    Joe
     
  28. Bristol Pete

    Bristol Pete
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2002
    Messages:
    5,577
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    106
    Location:
    Bristol.
    Ratings:
    +321
    Hi,

    After reading the manual and following posts on here I have now dropped the base peak to 15, and it is outputting white bass noise which is very audible. However, I cannot crank it up as my housemates are in and I have to respect them.

    I will test it in the week however.

    Will keep you all posted.

    Pete.

    Oh, and what exactly does bass peak do/offer????
     
  29. Bristol Pete

    Bristol Pete
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2002
    Messages:
    5,577
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    106
    Location:
    Bristol.
    Ratings:
    +321
    Actually, thinking about it, as my floor standers drop to 26hz, should I set my x/o to 50hz to maximise the bass our use the THX recommended 80hz??

    I do concur about a sub being essential, but surely having foor floor standers that drop to 26hz should negate the need for a sub. As before, the Denon was superb at sending LFE to the mains.

    Thanks,

    Pete.
     
  30. Bristol Pete

    Bristol Pete
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2002
    Messages:
    5,577
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    106
    Location:
    Bristol.
    Ratings:
    +321
    One more question, is bass peak relevant to volume or what ?

    I mean could I set it a 0 to get loads of bass?

    I really dont get it.

    Pete.
     

Share This Page

Loading...