dis-illusioned

Discussion in 'Blu-ray & DVD Players & Recorders' started by mulder, Sep 18, 2003.

  1. mulder

    mulder
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    I have been toying with the idea of buying a phillips dvdr75(for the i-link connection) but I have been put off by all the horror stories with the Phillips machines in general. I was looking at reviews for the above machine on amazon where at least 75% of people who had bought this machine and left reviews on the website were highly critical of Phillips and the dvdr70 and 75. Also you just have to read the forums on dvd+rworg website to realise that it is not worth spending the money on these recorders as they are very un-reliable. I was really looking forward to getting one of these machines until then and feel somewhat dissapointed by it all.
    I want a dvd +rw recorder as this format is compatible with exsiting DVD players but i cannot afford to take the gamble and hope it wouldn't go wrong. The extended warranty on top is out of my budget so I have no choice but to look elsewhere. Phillips customer service is supposed to be non-exsistant and for the life of me I do not understand why they are still putting newer models on the market that are plagued with problems. Does anyone know of any other manufactures that have a decent dvd+r/+rw recorder on the market for a reasonable price (£400 approx)?
     
  2. phelings

    phelings
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    Unfortunately you are stuck with Philips,although a few budget brands are appearing.
    I had an 880,but the unreliability took its toll.I also believed DVD+ to be more compatible,but its a lie.Get a Panasonic(Rasczak won't be far behind me and he will know which have i-link).There is actually a use for DVDRAM there.You can put your camcorder stuff on a RAM disc-edit it to perfection-then copy it to -R,which is just as compatible as +R.Rasczak will be unable to resist telling you its actually more compatible by a few percent.
     
  3. Rasczak

    Rasczak
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    The only other realistic choice you have is a Sony (which supports DVD+RW recordings as well as DVD-RW/-R). The GX3 should be well within your price bracket but lacks iLink. Specs are here:
    http://www.avland.co.uk/sony/rdrgx3/index.htm

    The GX7 (with iLink)can be got at a reasonable price now - but you'll be paying quite a premium for the dual format nature of the machine. Specs are here:
    http://www.avland.co.uk/sony/rdrgx3/index.htm

    You'll find both machines somewhat cheaper at places like:
    http://www.rgbdirect.co.uk/mainscreen.asp
    (and others - shop around)

    The 'cheap' DVD+RW machines from Bush, Daewoo, Cyberlink and Mico all use Philips sourced components so are likely to be as troubled as the current Philips range.

    If you prepared to consider formats other than + you'll find numerous options open to you. DVD-RW is just as (slightly more actually) compatible than DVD+RW and is supported by the JVC DMR1 - DVD-RAM/-RW/-R and the Pioneer 3100 - DVD-RW/-R (both machines have iLink). Both machines can be brought for £300-£400. The Panasonic E60 (also with an iLink connectio) is well worth a look - although if one of your core requirements is to play the disks upstairs then it is probably not the best choice.

    Have I mentioned that DVD-R is actually more compatible than DVD+R? :D

    http://www.cdrinfo.com/Sections/Art...=DVD Media Format Compatibility Tests&index=6
     
  4. PhilipL

    PhilipL
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    Hi

    It is worth nothing that you get none of linear editing features on +RW on the Sony, as they are removed in order to make the unit reliable.

    Again these machines are missing a lot of linear editing features in order to make the format less troublesome than on the Philips machines. It is also worth knowing that most do not source their components from Philips but use a chipset from Cirrus, who haven't much experience with +RW as these are the first machines arriving with the chips. Expect teething troubles.

    I am baffled as to why anyone who has either experienced problems first hand, or who has researched enough to know that +RW in set-tops is un-reliable, still thinks it is the better format? (Maybe it is the marketing?) If it doesn't work, it ain't better in my book, but maybe I am funny that way :)

    Regards

    Philip
     
  5. Rasczak

    Rasczak
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    I don't disupte the chipset coming from Cirrus but I'm almost certain they are sourcing technology from Philips. The full press release on the subject can be seen here:
    http://www.press.ce.philips.com/press/20030109_374.html
    ...but in short:

    Has this changed PhilipL (I could have missed it - I'm not THAT interested in DVD recorders from Daewoo ;) )? Whether this will translate into problems for the new machines is unknown - but common sense says a design based on a flawed design could cause problems.

    That's a good point - I should have mentioned that - although you get the vastly superior editting abilities of DVD-RW VR Mode so it's not really a loss.
     
  6. PhilipL

    PhilipL
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    Hi

    Yes some are coming from the Philips camp, but others are using Cirrus.

    http://www.cirrus.com/en/press/releases/P372.html
    http://www.cirrus.com/en/press/releases/P370.html
    http://www.area450.com/thesampozone/players/dver3internal.htm

    Some recorders are also using the LSI Logic chipsets (Apex and Mustek to name two), these are also being used in the JVC Recorders as the chipset supports all formats:

    http://ir.thomsonfn.com/InvestorRelations/PubNewsStory.aspx?partner=5333&storyId=90944

    Regards

    Philip
     
  7. phelings

    phelings
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    Who is saying that DVD+ is a better format Philip.Certainly not me.Even if you were not referring to me,here goes.In my days as a proDVD+ supporter I always maintained that RAM was the best format.There is no way to dispute that at all.The argument was always which format will win the format war,if one ever will.The DVD+ format has (had) built up a reputation for superior compatibility:lies or good marketing?Some time spent on the forums has shown that DVD+ is not more compatible as previously thought.Now that -R is getting a good hearing on the forums and in the mags,things may change,but the advent of the cheap imports for supermarkets will give DVD+ a very large presence in the marketplace.One thing that will not change-RAM is the best format in terms of features and capabilities,buts its basic lack of compatibility with other players,despite token attempts by RAM supporters to make their new players play them,means it will remain a small niche market,and does not stand a chance of becoming the de-facto standard in set top boxes,although PC usage will continue.
     
  8. Rasczak

    Rasczak
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    The only format that stands any chance of becoming the de-facto standard in set-top boxes is DVD-R. With near universal compatibility, cheap media and wide scale support (from DVD-RAM and DVD-RW camps as well as from the plus camp from Sony).

    It's slightly more than a token effort. By mid next year ANY new Toshiba, JVC, Samsung, Panasonic, LG or Hitachi DVD player and most new Thompson DVD players will support DVD-RAM playback. By the end of 2005 this is expected to have increased:
    http://www.rdvdc.org/english/press/topics/030731.html
    DVD-RAM is already supported in PC DVD players such as WinDVD.

    No one is implying it is going to have massive compatibility - but if you look at the product range in stores such as Dixons or Comet for example you'll find the above producers claim over 60% of the shelf space in the DVD players sections.

    You also have to remember that every DVD-RAM recorder sold increases compatibility - people will be buying new DVD recorders and many will be DVD-RAM capable so compatibility will increase vastly this way. Again if you look at stores such as Comet or Dixons (which are where most people buy there home electronics from) the DVD-RAM names hold a large percentage of the shelf space.

    And with all that in mind as Home Network solutions become available it will be less important that a DVD-RAM disk won't play in an upstairs DVD player.
     
  9. phelings

    phelings
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    But it will remain a small percentage of players already out there-and although you list a few who will be compatible,there is far more that won't be.
    I also believe Blu-ray will only catch on as either a replacement for RAM(as its just as incompatible)or as a cheaper(eventually) alternative to HDD due to its large storage capacity.But I think that -R and +R will still be there alongside for archiving
     
  10. Rasczak

    Rasczak
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    Agreed. But as households buy a DVD recorder to replace there VCR then most houses will have a DVD-RAM compatible machine. I don't dispute what your saying Phelings but there is certainly going to be a wide choice of players for someone who was looking for a DVD-RAM compatible machine.

    Well DVD-R will certainly be there beside BluRay as it's in the BluRay specification (as are DVD-RAM and DVD-RW). No promises for DVD+R ;) But your quite right DVD-R will still be their to provide backwards compatibility although home networks will be readily available by the time the first BluRay machine appears (and will likely be incorporated into the early machines).

    From what I've read and from discussions with various reps the majority see BluRay as a upper middle/high end format for the foreseeable future with DVD recorders (as they are now) taking the low end/lower middle market. Thus we will probably see HDD/DVDR/BluRay combos almost as soon as the format as released here (XMAS 05).
     
  11. phelings

    phelings
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    You have made various references in your replies for a while concerning conferences,reps and other things that make it sound as if you are working in the industry.What do you do?It seems you may have had an unfair advantage on us all
     
  12. phelings

    phelings
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    Rasczak-I have asked this before but do you think it was deliberate lies or just good marketing that successfully put over that +R was more compatible than -R?Or was it because extensive testing across all makes was moving slowly and +R WAS more compatible at the all important time of the drop to £500 for recorders?
    Your figures for -RW seem a bit strange considering that everwhere else it is spoken about gives the impression that compatibility is at the cost of editing features(VIDEO MODE_NOT VR) and I thought that once finalised,to enable playback in other players,that was the end of that disc-no more deleting and re-recording.Your comments elswhere made me think this ability to finalise,play in another player,then return for editing was new and confined to newer recorders.If it has always been possible,then the last remaining advantage of DVD+ is gone.
    A good kick up the arse for Pioneer is deserved for sitting it out for so long-if they had supported Panasonic a year or so ago with new recorders,then it would have been difficult for Philips to compete-or were Pioneer as unsure of the compatibility argument as everybody else?
     
  13. Rasczak

    Rasczak
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    I do work in the industry - at least in digital video - as a software writer for a variety of compression/distribution programmes currently employed by IBM at Cosham. I do get to go to most European shows, some North American ones and the occasional Japanese one where, in the course of my work, I get to see most models of DVD recorders.

    It wasn't deliberate lies - the minus companies were very backward about predicted compatibility until decent tests appeared - the CDR-Info tests have been embraced by Pioneer for example. Prior to that nobody was too willing to list statistics. On the other hand the plus companies were alot more 'confident' in their product's compatibility. Fair enough I suppose. Nobody knew for certain until the actual compatibility started to appear on www.dvdrhelp.com and the large scale tests were conducted on CDR-Info.

    The ability of DVD-RW (Video Mode) to be finalised, played in another player and then unfinalised is a new feature for set-top recorders. It is featured on the 3100 and the 5100 and will likely form part of Sony's 2004 lineup.

    DVD-RW is only highly compatible in Video Mode. Compatibility for DVD-RW (VR Mode - the one with all the editting facilities) is as minimal as DVD-RAM. But conversion to DVD-R is easy (by using a PC, DVD/HDD combo, VR Capabale player etc). It is envisaged in time that recorders will come with an on disk conversion to DVD-Video. Whether this will happen before BluRay takes over remains to be seen.
     
  14. phelings

    phelings
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    It sounds as if you are saying that -RW in Video mode is not possible on set tops,or is that swapping a VR recording to Video mode.
     
  15. Rasczak

    Rasczak
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    I'm obviously causing some confusion here. DVD-RW has two modes of operation that you select prior to commencing a recording:

    VIDEO MODE. This utilises the normal DVD-Video file structure, i.e. VOB files, and is the most compatible re-writeable DVD media. It has no editting facilities though - it's like recording onto a DVD-R Phelings. In this mode you can make a recording, finalise it, play it in another set-top and then return it to the original recorder and unfinalise it to record some more.

    VR MODE. This mode uses the same file structure as a DVD-RAM disk and comes with editting features, partial erase etc. However, although the disk type can be read by most set-tops the file structure cannot (although models by Pioneer and Sony can read it). Using this mode is similar to using a DVD-RAM disk.

    Conversion from VR Mode (low compatibility) to Video Mode (high compatibility) can be acheived in a number of ways most of which I have listed in the + or - thread.

    The compatibility figures quoted refer to the players/drives ability to read from the disks. Whether the disk can actually be played will depend upon the content of that disk. Thus a DVD-RW disk with a VR Recording may not be recognised by most players but a DVD-RW with a Video Mode recording will play in that player.
     
  16. phelings

    phelings
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    VIDEO MODE-is the 'returning to recorder for unfinalising' the function you mention that is only possible on new models
     
  17. Rasczak

    Rasczak
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    Yes - it is only available on the Pioneer 3100 and 5100 (or any DVD-RW compatible PC DVD burner). However this is now a defacto feature for DVD-RW machines so expect to see it on future models from Sony (standfast the GX3). To be fair there aren't that many DVD-RW models out there (yet!) so you could say it is only the DVDR7000 and GX7 that don't have this feature ;)
     

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