Dirac Live with Bass Control

lexicon

Well-known Member
Since the first graph shows two lines, I assume they're the separate outputs, not combined.

What does the combined output look like?

It may or may not be the simple addition of the two plots - the presence of more than one sub alters the way modes are excited in the room, usually for the better.
Yes separate. With Dirac you cannot see the combined/average trace. (That would be a nice feature for Dirac to add for sure). I’d need to measure with REW to see that and I haven’t got to that yet!

Edit - Actually I may be able to get that post Bass Control. I’ll go back to that project and see what I can do.
 
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lexicon

Well-known Member
There appears to be a bug in Bass Control when run with 2 subs (or more than one) in that it has a habit of placing the subs back into the pre Bass Control speaker group, adding a weird crossover line (here at 27hz) and losing the target curve line but keeping the measurement points.

I reported this to Storm and Dirac a few days ago.

But as you can see......after BC has done it's "thang" the combined trace follows the (missing!) curve so clearly the thing to do must be set the line flat and assume BC is going to perform it's magic which if the graph is right....it has done.

Subs post BM.PNG
 
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lexicon

Well-known Member
I understand that Dirac Live with Bass Control Version 3 should be released in the next few weeks. I am told that many of the reported operational anomolies and project loading issues have been addressed so I am hoping that this will prove a good one...... :)
 
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lexicon

Well-known Member
40hz v 60hz Xovers after Bass Control (Both subs and mains).
Ok I confess mains have been boosted between 40-100 for added punch :)
40 sounds noticeably tighter.....

40 v 60 mains Xover.PNG
 

markymiles

Distinguished Member
Must confess I have only scanned the thread. It looks like you are running subs separately? Whats the big dip between 120 and 130hz. Looks like either the subs are cancelling each other or combination of mains and subs? I would investigate further, might need to adjust delays post Dirac?
 

lexicon

Well-known Member
Must confess I have only scanned the thread. It looks like you are running subs separately? Whats the big dip between 120 and 130hz. Looks like either the subs are cancelling each other or combination of mains and subs? I would investigate further, might need to adjust delays post Dirac?
No that's a result of a room node that would probably require equipment locational changes that would be impractical to make. If you look at the dip on the green trace (single sub) you will see it is wider. The two subs in separate location has reduced but not eliminated it.

No doubt you could potentially do better on correcting that one dip manually but.......

The key thing to get your head around is that with Bass Control everything is optimised together. I have just attended a webinar where it was made clear that you need all subs on their own channels for this to be effective. Every sub is optimised to everything else - think of it as a giant interconnected web.

If you mess with the timings at all you are in danger of throwing something out of balance that has been calculated on the assumption that that delay is set as it is has been calculated as optimal.

Bass control can do it's best with your room but cannot defy the laws of science - it has to make compromises in some less important areas to make gains in others.

There are apparently two types of delays, the original channel delays and the multiple delays and levels adjustments and filters set to phase match every speaker group. These are calculated when the Bass Control algorithm is run. You can't see these.

You cannot even set/change the speaker groups it sets up from the way you have configured the speakers in the processor. So if your front heights are different to your rear heights they will still likely be put into the same group.

You can, however determine what crossovers you wish to set before you run the Bass Control algorithm and obviously experiment with different crossover combinations to see which you feel sounds the best for you.

Basically I think you either use the Dirac Bass Control System and are happy with what it does or you use manual Eq or leave Bass control off. Turning DBC on is a bit like setting your plane to autopilot.

That's not to say you can't experiment and see what you can achieve but I suspect this could result in some pot luck and that more harm could potentially be done than good!

If you manage to improve one area it is likely to have a (potentially negative) knock on effect elsewhere .
 
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Ringnut

Distinguished Member
Basically I think you either use the Dirac Bass Control System and are happy with what it does or you use manual Eq or leave Bass control off. Turning DBC on is a bit like setting your plane to autopilot.

It seems to me that the 'Alignment Tool' in the latest version of REW might offer a more flexible option.

 

lexicon

Well-known Member
It seems to me that the 'Alignment Tool' in the latest version of REW might offer a more flexible option.

For sure, but I suspect that’s way beyond where any but a very small minority would want (or have the experience) to go. :)
 
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nkatz

Active Member
No that's a result of a room node that would probably require equipment locational changes that would be impractical to make.

I believe nulls like that are quite narrow spatially, so perhaps moving the listening and/or the subs position a tadwould help.
 

lexicon

Well-known Member
I believe nulls like that are quite narrow spatially, so perhaps moving the listening and/or the subs position a tadwould help.
If we are talking a few inches yes that may be possible. I’ll give that a go when I next get some REW time 👍
 

flax

Active Member
Our bad :(

A common criticism of Bass Control with multiple subwoofers is the lack of bass after a calibration.
Users find much more satisfying bass with DLBC Off (standard Dirac Live) than when using Bass Control... why so?
This is a misunderstanding caused by us not explaining well how Bass Control works.
By using the same target for each sub their outputs will sum up in standard Dirac Live as each sub is measured and corrected individually while DLBC will take the summation into account and decrease their outputs accordingly.
We also expect to release (hopefully tomorrow) a new Dirac Live update where the target curve will be loaded to both the symmetric channels and the bass group, we will add an additional option to load the same desired target curve to all channels at once (including the bass channel)
That is an important update for users of Bass Control with one subwoofer as well.

Thanks for taking the above into account and for sharing your findings after having used the upcoming update,
Flavio
 
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lexicon

Well-known Member
Our bad :(

A common criticism of Bass Control with multiple subwoofers is the lack of bass after a calibration.
Users find much more satisfying bass with DLBC Off (standard Dirac Live) than when using Bass Control... why so?
This is a misunderstanding caused by us not explaining well how Bass Control works.
By using the same target for each sub their outputs will sum up in standard Dirac Live as each sub is measured and corrected individually while DLBC will take the summation into account and decrease their outputs accordingly.
We also expect to release (hopefully tomorrow) a new Dirac Live update where the target curve will be loaded to both the symmetric channels and the bass group, we will add an additional option to load the same desired target curve to all channels at once (including the bass channel)
That is an important update for users of Bass Control with one subwoofer as well.

Thanks for taking the above into account and for sharing your findings after having used the upcoming update,
Flavio
Still not up Flavio - hopefully because you’re being really thorough with your beta testing to make sure it works properly with all projects created in previous versions on Windows 10......😁😁🤓
 

mb3195

Distinguished Member
Still not up Flavio - hopefully because you’re being really thorough with your beta testing to make sure it works properly with previous versions on Windows 10......😁😁🤓

thought you'd taken a sabbatical on here mate!!
 

lexicon

Well-known Member
Still not up Flavio - hopefully because you’re being really thorough with your beta testing to make sure it works properly with all projects created in previous versions on Windows 10......😁😁🤓
Haven’t altered the calibrations for many weeks now so until Dr Flax comes up with an upgrade that (both doesn’t crash 😁 and) really moves things on......
I’m using a manual EQ tweaked version of DBC via minidsp (thanks to you) anyway so would take loads of work to re-work.
 

flax

Active Member
Haven’t altered the calibrations for many weeks now so until Dr Flax comes up with an upgrade that (both doesn’t crash 😁 and) really moves things on......
I’m using a manual EQ tweaked version of DBC via minidsp (thanks to you) anyway so would take loads of work to re-work.
Even if it hasn't been published yet, because of the summer holidays, Dirac Live 3.0.4 is now available at our HelpDesk:
https://helpdesk.dirac.se (one needs to "Sign up for an account")
It's important to know that for Dirac Live Bass Control to work as expected, Arcam, JBL and AudioControl users need a 1.36 firmware update that is expected this week.
 

lexicon

Well-known Member
Even if it hasn't been published yet, because of the summer holidays, Dirac Live 3.0.4 is now available at our HelpDesk:
https://helpdesk.dirac.se (one needs to "Sign up for an account")
It's important to know that for Dirac Live Bass Control to work as expected, Arcam, JBL and AudioControl users need a 1.36 firmware update that is expected this week.
Ok - I’m both excited and scared in equal measure 😬. Can you kindly give us a list of exactly what the improvements are and what they mean in practice as I have to confess I didn’t really understand your previous post. What does it do to existing projects created in say V3.02 and V2.52?
many thanks @flax
 

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