1. Join Now

    AVForums.com uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Dipole or direct 7.1?

Discussion in 'Home Cinema Speakers' started by Cookiedds, Mar 24, 2002.

  1. Cookiedds

    Cookiedds
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    I am upgrading to 7.1 surround dts-es and THX ultra and would like some speaker advice. This system will be for movies only, (I have a seperate music system in a listening room). With 2 front, 1 center, 2 surrounds and 2 back surrounds would you recommend dipole, Bipole or direct radiating surround and back surrounds or a combo of both? Thanks for your advice.
     
  2. Jase

    Jase
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2001
    Messages:
    9,341
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    South Coast
    Ratings:
    +834
    Personally, I´ve got dipoles at the sides and monopoles as surround backs.

    Certainly works well for me, its now also what THX are recommending for EX setups.
     
  3. Cookiedds

    Cookiedds
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    The room is 16' wide and 23' deep with the viewing possition currently about 8' from back wall. There are very few limitations as to where I can place seating or speakers(3 blank walls and 1 long wall with door at back and fireplace on wall). It's a rectangular dedicated home theater room so almost any configuration is possible within space constraints. After I decide on what surrounds and rear surrounds, placement is next....suggestions welcome.
     
  4. Reiner

    Reiner
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2000
    Messages:
    3,315
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    61
    Location:
    Germany
    Ratings:
    +13
    Isn't it recommended to use 4 equal speakers for the rears and surrounds?

    If di/bipole or direct radiating is a very personal thing or perhaps depends on placement. If that's a 'movie only' system I would probably look more towards di/bipole.
     
  5. Jase

    Jase
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2001
    Messages:
    9,341
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    South Coast
    Ratings:
    +834
    THX have done a bit of a U turn on their specs, THX Ultra 2 now recommends Dipoles at the sides, Monopoles as the Surround Backs and that they are as close together as possible.
     
  6. HouseofMu

    HouseofMu
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2000
    Messages:
    376
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    UK
    Ratings:
    +13
    Cookiedds: I asked B&W the same question (I have their CDM NT range in a 5.1 setup), they recommended using two more of the same (CDMS NT's in my case £750). Which has me a little confused as they do a THX 'in-wall' dipole (the CDS6, £399) or even their in-wall 'Signature 7NT' (which I'm assuming would is an in-wall match for the 7NT range).

    So dipole or full range, THX or manufactures recommendation?

    n.
     
  7. Cookiedds

    Cookiedds
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    Would 1 or 2 rear wall surrounds be a better match with two side surrounds? Would two smear the discrete effects by matrixing the L&R surround signals?
     
  8. HouseofMu

    HouseofMu
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2000
    Messages:
    376
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    UK
    Ratings:
    +13
    I believe, 2 rear surrounds is preferred over 1. Something to do with the brain not being able to detect if its coming from the rear if just 1 is used. I'm sure I read that on this forum somewhere, or maybe in a HCC article.

    I did a little asking around about using b&w dipoles (for the sides), but seems they've been discontinued, might be a replacement coming out this summer? Something I'd wait for, to maintain matching brands.

    I think whether to use dipoles or directs for the sides, seems to be down to your own room setup. I've been advised that in a smaller room (your sitting closer to the side spkr) use dipoles (for the diffused soundfield), for larger rooms use directs.

    Finding a shop that'll let you take home all these expensive spkrs to try is another problem.

    n.
     
  9. lmccauley

    lmccauley
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2000
    Messages:
    3,295
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    86
    Location:
    Newcastle
    Ratings:
    +212
    I'd heard that too. However, I've recently had the fortune of listening to a 7.1 system with the two rear speakers right next to each other (directly behind the listening position) and I had no problem detecting that the sounds came from the rear.

    I believe it's because in an actual film the rear is not used in isolation - sounds pan from left to rear to right.

    Based on that experience, I'd say a single rear should be fine.

    Cheers,
    Liam
     
  10. Couch Potato

    Couch Potato
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    The B&W dipole was originally designed as a surround speaker as part of a Pro Logic system and is not full range only 85Hz to 8Khz. It is being discontinued and not replaced.

    Steve
     
  11. HouseofMu

    HouseofMu
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2000
    Messages:
    376
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    UK
    Ratings:
    +13
    Do you know if b&w have plans to introduce another (full-range) dipole?

    I was considering the new b&w 'in-wall' Signature 7NT (as I understand should match my CDMS NT's), but as they're direct and I'm only 4/5ft from them I'm worried their 'sound from the side' might be too obvious ?

    I've been pointed towards the new MonitorAudio Gold's (GRFX), but have yet to hear them.

    n.
     
  12. bob007

    bob007
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    I was under the impression that it was two rear surrounds that were positioned apart is where the confusion lies, but placed side by side and directly behind the listening position as THX Ultra 2 now recommends is where they should be placed.

    I had two rear surrounds placed apart but at a narrower distance than the fronts, sound seemed ok, but upon hearing these changes i have re-positioned the rears or shall i say rear, the single rear is now positioned behind a little higher than the L/R surrounds and tilted down towards the listening position, then i re calibrated the speaker levels.

    I have really noticed the difference, i'm sure this is the way to go, it was for me.

    Personally i don't see the need for two rears as the sound is matrixed from L/R surrounds, my reason being, why have two speakers side by side with the same sound output from each speaker when one does the same job. ( If i am missing something here please advise and put me right ) i.e is there a difference in decoding when two rears are connected.

    Saying that if 7ch stereo is used you will need the second speaker connected.
     
  13. HouseofMu

    HouseofMu
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2000
    Messages:
    376
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    UK
    Ratings:
    +13
    Wouldn't a single rear be a 6.1 not a 7.1 setup?

    I take it 7.1 (ie stereo rears) is just for non-matrixed (discrete) surround formats? Are there any dvd's released with 7.1 or is it all matrixed at the moment?

    When a normal (5.1) encoded disc is played through a processor into 4 rears is it normal for it to use two per rear channel or would a pair become 'dead' ?

    n.
     
  14. bob007

    bob007
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    This is where mine has been moved to, i found that tilting it down gave better results than it being level aswell.

    All this couldn't have been done without the help of jase, he really gave me some really good tips.
     

    Attached Files:

  15. bob007

    bob007
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    Don't think that there is a 7.1 only 6.1 (discrete), presume when 7.1 comes out then the two rears would be stereo.

    Playing 5.1 in 6.1 the sound is matrixed from the left and right surrounds, feeding the 1 or 2 rears that you have connected, no speakers are dead.
    Thats the way i understand it........
     
  16. uncle eric

    uncle eric
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    Bob,
    You are not missing anything. Well said.
    Indeed this was the point of that long drawn out thread here some weeks ago.
    There is no compelling reason to use two rear speakers in any Home cinema set up.

    Eric
     
  17. uncle eric

    uncle eric
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    A message here surely!

    Eric
     
  18. Cookiedds

    Cookiedds
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    If I am placing 6 Paradigm Reference Studio 20's and a Studio CC (all monopole) and Paradigm PW2200 sub and Denon 3802, what is the ideal location for each in my 23' (7m) deep x 16' (4.87m) wide x 8' (2.44m) high room. 3 walls are blank and the arrangement is very flexible (no windows). A sketch of my room layout is attached.
     

    Attached Files:

  19. Jase

    Jase
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2001
    Messages:
    9,341
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    South Coast
    Ratings:
    +834
    Hi

    Your fronts are ok. You´ll need to place the side surrounds (if theyre monopole) just slighly behind the seating area and angled in.

    The surround backs should go on the wall behind the listening area as close together as possible and angled down towards the listening position. You´ll need to play around with the angle of the speaker for optimum performance. If theyre floorstanders you cant do much about height etc you´ll just have to have them near the rear wall.

    Subwoofer placement will be the hardest. Place the sub at the listening position, put on a cd with decent bass and walk around the room to find the spot with the tightest, fastest sounding bass. When you find it, place the sub there.

    You really need to experiment as for what may seem ideal on paper may not work so well in practice (room acoustics etc).

    Have fun!!:)

    cheers
     
  20. Rob

    Rob
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2000
    Messages:
    1,279
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    51
    Location:
    Norwich
    Ratings:
    +33
    I find using 2 rear speakers works fine (see attachment) using 4 Kef TDMs (dipoles). I guess its trial and error for everybody, but I don't fancy changing anything at this stage. Too much hassle to try one. If it aint broke, don't fix it (for me anyway)

    Cheers Rob.
     

    Attached Files:

  21. Phil Hinton

    Phil Hinton
    Editor Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2001
    Messages:
    9,717
    Products Owned:
    2
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    AVForums
    Ratings:
    +6,984
    Rob,

    Your room just keeps getting better everytime I see it. The white TDM's look very nice, and the 808 looks far better(and proberly performs better) than your old Seleco(?). Looks good mate.

    Can I just ask how much you paid for the TDM's?
     
  22. Rob

    Rob
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2000
    Messages:
    1,279
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    51
    Location:
    Norwich
    Ratings:
    +33
    Thanks Phil,

    Yeah, the 808 was a great improvement over the Seleco. Problem is I'd now like a 1209 :rolleyes: Can't stretch to that at the moment though..... Too many other commitments like family and stuff.

    I think I paid around £630 per pair for the TDMs. A bit cheaper than list price, and the best I could find at the time. I decided on white, as they looked better in the room. A bit light for a home cinema, but its also used as a sitting room, so I had to compromise a bit. I'm working on making it a bit darker though, gradually over time so she doesn't notice :eek:

    Cheers Rob.
     
  23. Cookiedds

    Cookiedds
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    What height and possition to the listener should I place the side Paradigm Reference Studio ADP dipoles and the Studio 20 rear surrounds? I've heard that the rear surrounds should be placed pretty close together. Would the rears sound better just above ear level or angled down toward the listener near ceiling height? I have nearly 8 feet open behind the couch to the rear wall. The room is 16 feet wide, 23 feet deep and 8 feet high. I have an attachment posted earlier in this sting if you want to look at the layout. Thanks Much
     
  24. Jase

    Jase
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2001
    Messages:
    9,341
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    South Coast
    Ratings:
    +834
    The dipoles should be placed at the sides and about 2ft above your head.

    The rear centres should be placed as close together as possible and higher up than the side dipoles and then angled down towards the listening position.

    You´ll probably need to experiment with various positions and angles to find the best in relation to your room.
     
  25. Nic Rhodes

    Nic Rhodes
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2001
    Messages:
    17,133
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    133
    Location:
    Cumbria
    Ratings:
    +1,277
    Many moons ago, in the distant past when goblins ruled the flat earth, we had a thing called pro logic. It was okay and had a matrixed mono signal in the rear. We used to call it 4.1 on the old scrolls that were HCC. This meant that a single mono rear speaker was needed. It didn’t sound too hot. Along came a bunch of enterprising guys at THX and produced a THX button on expensive kit. Amongst other things it de-correlated the single mono signal which we all had problems with. They turned it into two slightly different signals in the rear. The brain now recognised that this wasn’t the single centre but two rears and placement of sound became much better. Everyone loved THX and it was an essential button to have.

    Next along came DD and DTS 5.1 formats. They were not matrix formats and were in true discrete 5.1, therefore didn’t need the magic THX button anymore. They had separate and discrete rears and everyone loved them. THX fell out of favour. No one loved them anymore. Now DD / DTS got greedy and produced matrixed 6.1 versions. This gave a mono rear just like pro logic. However someone forgot to tell the brain that we were back to a mono rear and therefore much of the advantages of 6.1 were lost on the unsuspecting public. However one or two very enterprising companies now do 7.1 (not from a DVD disc) but from a stereo input signal, they found that 7.1 was loads better than 6.1. They found that a single mono rear was again confused with the centre, simply because of how the way the brain works and treats sound and it’s direction. They therefore use two rear speakers so the brain wasn’t confused. However the world has forgotten many things in the mists of time (Atlantis etc) and there was again a drive for a mono rear by people who wanted to save money.

    Are we not re inventing a wheel here? Use two rears, you will regret it if you do not.

    Now THX has seen the error of it’s ways and has introduced musical multi-channel speakers specs. Many different solutions work well here. I like di-poles on sides and rears for films. It works very well when you don’t have a dedicated room. For music I switch rears from di-poles to direct radiating speakers. Others like direct radiating speakers everywhere. There are many solutions to this but I would say the quality of the speaker is more important than the type and I do use TWO rears.
     
  26. Matt F

    Matt F
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2000
    Messages:
    900
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    21
    Location:
    Chester, UK
    Ratings:
    +4
    Nic, just a thought on this (and it's something that's been bothering me for some time):

    Given that many of the more successful multi channel music recordings don't overdo it on the surround channels, instead using the rears only for ambient sound, wouldn't it make more sense to use dipoles for music?

    I appreciate that some music (Floyd spring to mind) will have sound coming at you from all directions, but even then, isn't this more like a movie where dipoles are more readilly recommended?

    Putting it another way - it is said (generally, mind you) dipoles for movies when you've got meteors shooting directly out of your rear speakers, and yet direct radiators for music when a lot of the time you're trying to recreate the subtle ambience and reverberations of the concert hall - maybe we've got it the wrong way around!

    Any thoughts?
     
  27. Nic Rhodes

    Nic Rhodes
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2001
    Messages:
    17,133
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    133
    Location:
    Cumbria
    Ratings:
    +1,277
    MattF

    You are smack on with your assesment, hence my preference for quality of speaker over type. I don’t just prefer films on di-poles and music on direct radiators on music it is actually more complicated than that. I do prefer di-poles on most if not all films however. For music it is more down to how something has been mixed.

    Here we have two options. One is the subtle surround style, like a live concert. Here the rears/sides are reproducing the atmosphere of the arena etc and I often prefer the di-poles. When music (rather than ambient effects) is being sent to the rear/sides then I think some things change, and this is where direct radiators may come to the fore. Many of the current music DVDs are in your face music for surround and this is what I think doesn’t work too well with di-poles and the extra direction from the direct radiator is more beneficial. It seems to make more sense of the music but this might be down to poor authoring, and producers learning how to mix multi channel music. I think each has a place and hence my ability to switch out my THX di-poles (KEF) and in some Q15s. If I had to pick one it would be the di-poles, but I can understand why people like di-poles on sides and direct radiators on rears.
     
  28. Jase

    Jase
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2001
    Messages:
    9,341
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    South Coast
    Ratings:
    +834
    Having had both of types (now got dipoles only) I preferred the sound of the monopoles for music over the dipoles.

    Thats not to say the dipoles sound bad its just they dont sound as good for music reproduction I.M.O.

    Maybe with music you need to have a sound that is localizable whereas with films and their ambient effects you need the opposite.

    In an ideal world you would have both types of speakers and switch between the two.
     
  29. Rob

    Rob
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2000
    Messages:
    1,279
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    51
    Location:
    Norwich
    Ratings:
    +33
    Have to agree, using 2 back speakers has to be better than one. Logic 7 was developed to gain the very best in surround sound and is still the most effective mode I have heard for this purpose. I am hoping Tag will develop something simelar. TMS 7 is OK for music but is lacking a bit for movie reproduction

    Rob.
     
  30. HouseofMu

    HouseofMu
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2000
    Messages:
    376
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    UK
    Ratings:
    +13
    My new lounge is 16'6" long by 16' wide, my seating position will be about 4' from the back wall and about 5' from the nearest side wall.

    So taking into account this discussion about rears, would I be better leaving both my B&W CDMS NT's (full range spkrs) on the rear wall, about 2ft above head height, but closer together. Then for the sides, investing in dipoles, set at roughtly the same height but slightly back from the seating position?

    I'm moving into a new house next week and was hoping to pre-wire the walls (side and rear), at roughly the right position, in anticipation of new spkrs.

    Is it as important to manufacturer match dipole spkrs (with my other 7NT's) as other types (because of the diffused sound)?

    n.
     

Share This Page

Loading...