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Digital Audio delay unit

Discussion in 'Plasma TVs' started by Andrew_B, Jan 27, 2003.

  1. Andrew_B

    Andrew_B
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    A few months back, there was a posting from a person who was developing a little box to delay the audio signal and allow it to be 'lined up' with the image on our Plasmas. I'm not sure if he was intending to include analogue inputs for non-Sky+ owners, but I would dearly love to get my hands on one of these for my Sky+ digital output!

    Can the person give us an update on how they are getting on with this unit, and how close thay are to getting it manufactured? I think that they were looking at a retail price of about £100, which I for one would gladly pay. This would be cheaper than any of the solutions currently being discussed on the forum, and save buying a new amp!

    Andrew_B
     
  2. PVR

    PVR
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    I am not sure if that zoom RFX1000 unit which Redrose has got is the answer to our problem (£99)... Have a look at his post about swapping panny for pio 50mxe, he mentions it in there.

    Regards,

    PVR
     
  3. Stimpy

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    Surely the problem with these delay units currently on the market is that they are designed for stereo use, hence will only delay the front L/R speakers and not the centre and rears (OK most AV amps have some sort of delay on the rears)
     
  4. Andrew_B

    Andrew_B
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    I looked at that one too, but it's analogue only and I use the digital output on my Sky+ box so that Smovies widescreen is in Dolby Digital.
     
  5. PVR

    PVR
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    But if the delay is introduced up-stream, that should not matter?
     
  6. Stimpy

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    For the SKY/NTL/VCR stuff fine as its only Stereo out anyway, but whatabout DVD stuff you'd have to delay the audio in the digital domain, which these things won't do very well, if at all
     
  7. PVR

    PVR
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    So for standard Sky boxes, it should work fine then?
     
  8. PVR

    PVR
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    I think I need a delay as well, keep responding to previous messages ....
     
  9. cadmeister

    cadmeister
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    For a stereo source (Standard SKY or anaolgue) on of the many audio effects boxes discussed previously will work (see my thread on Lip Sync issues). I'm getting a new Alesis nanoverb (about £90) this week to resolve my problems and will report back with pictures and comments when it's setup.

    For digital signals/5.1 it's far more complex and would really have to be incorporated into the amp.
     
  10. StooMonster

    StooMonster
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  11. RedRose

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    Hi Guys

    This is a response mainly to PVR but also of course for anyone who's interested.

    The ZoomRFX1000 does the job just fine. Don't worry about it only being stereo and your amp being Pro Logic or ProLogic2. It's the AMP which does all the decoding of multiplxed multi-channel sound, the amp does the work of separating the channels out from the cleverly interleaved stuff in the 2 feed channels. This is how you get ProLogic out of your amp when the Sky box only has Left and Right audio Out.

    The 30mS delay on your amp is intended for rear speakers and is to compensate for them being (usually) closer to you than the front speakers. It is not intended for lip sync delays of 200mS. (except for the Denon 3803 - £800!!).

    So the delay box just takes the two channels, delays them and sends them on; it doesn't care what sort of data is embedded in that waveform. Just like a telephone (analogue) modem doesn't care what kind of data is hidden in all those squeaks and buzzes that you hear. Actually the way that stereo radio works is a better analogy but what the hell. :rolleyes:

    It's true that it doesn't handle purely digital data from a DVD coax or fibre optic connection. In any case the sampling rate (44.1KHz) of the box is too low.

    Put it between the Sky box and the AV amp. You might need Quarter inch (elec guitar and synth) to phono converters but that's all. If you daisy chain e.g. a VCR through the Sky box you should be able to delay both devices (as long as watching VCR on a plasma isn't against your religion :D )

    This box cost me £99 brand new from my local music shop. Works a treat. Feel free to ask me any other questions about it.

    Cheers.
     
  12. PVR

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    Thanks for that, RedRose. As the most irritation is with the SKY stuff, which indeed is just a straight analogue signal, I think I will join you with your solution.

    The DVD delay has never been such an issue, but with some SKY channels it is just laughable at times, so a solution in that area is well worth £99. If there is a more advance solution later on for the DVD, I will just add it to the equipment stack :)

    Thanks again,

    PVR
     
  13. StooMonster

    StooMonster
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  14. PVR

    PVR
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    I looked at the spec, lots of different types of delay, interesting ...

    Let me know how you get on with it when you get it, still trying to decide which one to get at the moment .

    PVR
     
  15. DJP

    DJP
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    The M300 does look like a really good piece of kit. Shame it hasn't got an optical in as this means an optical to digital RCA converter will be required to connect to Sky+.

    Really interested to see if this works as - although I'm going to upgrade my Amp - a friend of mine is looking for a lip sync solution for Sky+.

    Derek
     
  16. StooMonster

    StooMonster
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    I bought a Toslink (optical) to S/PDIF (coax) converter to go along with M300. £20 from http://www.lektropacks.co.uk to convert the optical digital sound out of my Sony digibox.

    I spent a small fortune on a new amp nine months ago, and not planning to upgrade for a while (to one that has delay). So I hope this all works out okay. :blush:

    StooMonster
     
  17. StooMonster

    StooMonster
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    I could be completely wrong here, but I understand that people say coax is better than optical because optical is commonly muted to 48kHz rather than 96kHz.

    If this is the case, and SkyDigital digibox is outputting a 48kHz bitstream, I wonder if the M300 can handle this as its 24-bit sample rate is at 48kHz on digital input with frequency response of 23.9 kHz ± 0.01 dB.

    I'll test it out when the boxes arrive.

    StooMonster
     
  18. cadmeister

    cadmeister
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    I'll be using an Alesis Nanoverb . It's small and can be tucked out of the way and does all I need - delays stereo by up to a second. Plus it's £75. I should be picking it up this week.
     
  19. PVR

    PVR
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    Ok Cadmeister,

    Have you got it setup yet?

    Regards,

    PVR
     
  20. StooMonster

    StooMonster
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    Sigh :suicide:

    First place I ordered a TC Electronics M300 from http://www.electromusic.co.uk/ who accepted and confirmed my order on Monday morning; last one in stock apparently, for bargain £145. However sold it from their shop before dispatching it to me, but only told me when I ran up on Wednesday to ask why it hadn't been delivered yet. Then told me they weren't going to order any more and I had to go elsewhere. :mad:

    Second place I ordered http://www.turnkey.co.uk/ nearly did a price match with Electromusic; but then checked with them and found they weren't going to stock any more, so it was their list price of £189 plus next day shipping; which is still cheaper than anywhere else I've seen.

    Did it turn up today? Courier's got it somewhere, hopefully not lost like an item I had delivered last week. So, I am getting a refund on cost of shipping but have to hope that it will arrive tomorrow.

    Once I've finally got one, I'll let you know how the delay function works; and which signals it will process.

    StooMonster
     
  21. cadmeister

    cadmeister
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    I'm picking my Nanoverb up from Turnkey on Monday, so like Stoomonster I'll post my experiences back here.
     
  22. StooMonster

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    A fine product -- amazing toy -- with plenty of FX and 48kHz 24-bit sampling with digital coax (S/PDIF) in and out. Finally worked out how to get correct setting to delay the digital audio signal.

    Unfortunately delay is 250ms to 5 seconds. :rolleyes:

    Luckily the nice people at Turnkey have a 28 day return refund policy. :) Their people are scowering their catalogues and website for me to see if they can find a replacement product that does what I want. Very nice of them.

    The quest continues.

    StooMonster
     
  23. PVR

    PVR
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    So waiting for Nanoverb results then...
     
  24. StooMonster

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    http://www.lexicon.com/mpx200/index.asp
    Digital coax input and output, 24-bit 44.1kHz sampling, Less than m300's 48kHz, but should work okay. :confused:

    PDF brouchure says preset 99 is Delay Stereo 0-2.7s -- but could I find out what the increments are? Tried Turnkey, they don't know, put me onto Lexicon in UK who didn't know either, phoned Lexicon in US (after keeping me on hold for ages) who said it is 20.1ms increments.

    Turnkey sell them for £189.00 -- same price I paid for the other unit -- and will swap them for me. Nice! Should have new unit on Monday morning.

    Wonder if this one will work.

    StooMonster
     
  25. Rob100

    Rob100
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    Stoomonster.

    Looking the manual for the MX200 it states the S/PDIF only accept inputs of 44.1kHz.

    No good for DVD (48kHz) - what's the output from a Sky plus box - is that 44.1kHz?

    Rob.
     
  26. StooMonster

    StooMonster
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    Should see tomorrow, courier's willing.

    I'm hoping that it's like the M300 and the analogue inputs are 44.1kHz and the digital is really 48kHz. I'll also call Lexicon US to check.

    If not, it could be down to analogue and cheaper unit. :(

    StooMonster
     
  27. Rob100

    Rob100
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    Stoomonster,

    Did it arrive? Are you able to report yet?

    Thanks,

    Rob.
     
  28. StooMonster

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    Yes it arrived.

    Very hard to set up compared to TC Electronic M300; it has one LED window with three characters, and a couple of buttons and a dial to program versus lots of dials on M300 (which was dead easy). It took me ages to even pass a sound through the digital input/output.

    I had Sky running through it (with a digital delay) but the sound was only coming out of left-front speaker and no others -- probably a configuration error. I'm going to play with it again at lunchtime today.

    Unfortunately the S/PDIF is 44.1kHz, and I don't know how this affects sound matrices (yet); but later will run DVD player to test.

    StooMonster
     
  29. PVR

    PVR
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    And what about your Nanoverb, Cadmeister?
     
  30. SimonA

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    I'm not sure that the Nanoverb will work in this situation. I tried one out in Turnkey in London and the Delay setting would only give repeat delays rather than the single slapback effect that's required.
    I eventually went with my old Midiverb II which I had lying around in my studio. It sort of works ok, but two things are a little annoying. The preset delays jump from 75 ms to 115ms so nothing around the 80ms, but it's certainly better than nothing.

    The other interesting fact is that although the unit is a stereo in, stereo out, the delayed signal appears to be mono. I've got the digital signal from my Sky+ box plugged in as well as the delay and the ProLogic II on my amp works well on the stereo digital signal, but doesn't do anything on the delayed analog signal. Turning the mix control on the Midiverb unit back to the original signal, the rear speakers come to life leading me to think that the effected signal is mono.

    Simon
     

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