Did Everyone Get The Same Reply From Tosh ?

Discussion in 'Blu-ray & DVD Players & Recorders' started by Blu-rayx, Nov 13, 2002.

  1. Blu-rayx

    Blu-rayx
    Member

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2001
    Messages:
    2,106
    Products Owned:
    6
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    66
    Location:
    n/a
    Ratings:
    +217
    HI ALL,

    THIS IS THE REPLY I GOT FROM TOSHIBA ABOUT PAL PROGRESSIVE TODAY :( :mad:

    ARE THEY TELLING THE TRUTH?



    I have been advised by our Technical department that the reason there is no
    firmware upgrade available for the SD900E to enable it to have PAL
    progressive scan is due to the fact the PAL progressive scan is a feature
    of a DVD player, and is not something to do with the firmware of the
    equipment. The firmware which can be upgraded alters the way a DVD player
    can read a disc such as accessing a hidden features menu which the player
    would otherwise be unable to see. PAL progressive scan is not dependent on
    specific discs but the equipment itself.

    DVD
     
  2. richard plumb

    richard plumb
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2002
    Messages:
    14,346
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    133
    Location:
    Windsor
    Ratings:
    +1,028
    yes and no.

    Yes, PAL progressive requires hardward which can perform the necessary trickery.

    But recent progressive chipsets can do both NTSC and PAL, but the PAL portion wasn't enabled due to DVD forum compliance issues.

    So if a multifunction chip is used, then a firmware update could activate PAL progressive, but this is by no means certain.

    I'm sure some people on this board know the chipset used in the 9000, so could shed some light on whether a firmware upgrade would be feasible or not.
     
  3. Blu-rayx

    Blu-rayx
    Member

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2001
    Messages:
    2,106
    Products Owned:
    6
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    66
    Location:
    n/a
    Ratings:
    +217
    CAN ANYONE ELSE SHED ANYMORE LIGHT :cool:



    DVD
     
  4. Timh

    Timh
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2000
    Messages:
    4,819
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    86
    Location:
    Altair-4
    Ratings:
    +140
    Toshiba..... What a joke, it sounds like its easier for them just to say that pal prog cannot be enabled because its just to much hassle for them to programme an upgrade.
    You SD900 owners have spent a fair chunk more cash than I have for my SD510, so you would expect a better after sales service, I bet if this happened in the States it would have been sorted by now :mad:
     
  5. Blu-rayx

    Blu-rayx
    Member

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2001
    Messages:
    2,106
    Products Owned:
    6
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    66
    Location:
    n/a
    Ratings:
    +217
    hi Timh,

    toshiba should upgrade all players no matter how much cash you spend.

    dvd
     
  6. rjw

    rjw
    Member

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2002
    Messages:
    204
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    21
    Location:
    Bath
    Ratings:
    +5
    Maybe Tosh are actually telling the truth (shock horror). You have to remember that the SD900 is a relatively old player, and may well have a chipset that cannot cope with PAL Progressive (a relatively new "standard").

    You are complaining of poor customer service because a superceded player which was designed over two years ago, (apparently) does not support an upgrade to a standard ratified only a short while ago? :rolleyes:
     
  7. Cool-hand

    Cool-hand
    Member

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2002
    Messages:
    2,105
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    51
    Location:
    Portsmouth / Middle East
    Ratings:
    +77
    Unfortuneatly the Tosh 900e will not output Pal progressive (well in a half descent form it wont). It will downconvert PAL to NTSC and output that as progressive but the results are dissapointing. As a result of the 3:2 pulldown it drops a frame every 30 to 40 seconds which appears as a very slight glitch but noticeable all the same.
    And I believe Tosh's answers to this are just 'upgrade' ie. buy a new player.
     
  8. Timh

    Timh
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2000
    Messages:
    4,819
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    86
    Location:
    Altair-4
    Ratings:
    +140
    eeemmmm. I wonder if the 510 520 and the 900 all share the same progressive chip, if not maybe the newer players like the 510, 520 and maybe the 9500 can be upgraded.

    :eek: I just woke up :(
     
  9. Blu-rayx

    Blu-rayx
    Member

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2001
    Messages:
    2,106
    Products Owned:
    6
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    66
    Location:
    n/a
    Ratings:
    +217
    here is another reply from tosh.


    the limitations of the progressive scan chipset in use on the 900E do preclude adding the feature by firmware. An upgrade to this feature would require changing one of the chips on the 900E motherboard - this is why hacked firmware that includes this feature is not available on the net.

    now i'm more confused :confused: :confused:


    what hacked firmware , can anyone shed any light?


    dvd
     
  10. rjw

    rjw
    Member

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2002
    Messages:
    204
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    21
    Location:
    Bath
    Ratings:
    +5
    The hardware cannot do PAL progressive.

    There is no hacked firmware.

    To put it simply, the SD900E cannot, and will not, be able to output PAL Progressive.
     
  11. Timh

    Timh
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2000
    Messages:
    4,819
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    86
    Location:
    Altair-4
    Ratings:
    +140
    In English it meens never buy Toshiba again :mad: bin what you own and go and buy the philips 963 when it comes out.
    That's how I feel anyway.

    I guess they just meen it cannot be modified by firmware to allow prog pal playback. This is probably down to Toshiba using their own de-interlacer instead of using a decent pal prog one from the likes of Faroudja DCDi. :(
     
  12. John Dawson

    John Dawson
    Member

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2001
    Messages:
    852
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Location:
    Cambridge, UK
    Ratings:
    +112
    Guys - I wouldn't normally comment but really!

    The (excellent) player you are talking about was designed when 625p was not even a twinkle in the eye for us Europeans. Consequently the parts used were never designed with 625p in mind, nor were they even available.

    In particular the video DACs used would not have incorporated the necessary circuitry to put the Macrovision anti copy signals on the 625p component output. Macrovision didn't even publish a confidential proposal for this until March 2001.

    The new MV rules state that any 625p player has to be retested by MV to check that this anti copy signal is in place. The 900E doesn't have the right parts, so can't be resubmitted and so on - you work it out.

    That's life.

    John Dawson (Arcam)
     
  13. Messiah

    Messiah
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2002
    Messages:
    7,530
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    106
    Ratings:
    +339
    Strange, considering leconcepts are now supplying SD900E players fully NTSC and PAL progressive out of the box. Apparently this is achieved via a firmware upgrade NOT a hardware one.

    Work it out :D
     
  14. rjw

    rjw
    Member

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2002
    Messages:
    204
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    21
    Location:
    Bath
    Ratings:
    +5
    Nothing to work out. It's pseudo PAL Progressive.

    IIRC it convertes PAL to NTSC, then to progressive.
     
  15. Cool-hand

    Cool-hand
    Member

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2002
    Messages:
    2,105
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    51
    Location:
    Portsmouth / Middle East
    Ratings:
    +77
    HI M

    I think you'll find you were looking at the new Tosh sd9500e dvd player not the sd900e which is marked as having Pseudo Pal Progressive.

    Wish it was the otherway round though, but soon, that 9500 WILL BE MINE :eek:

    Tosh are about the only dvd player on this forum that never gets slated or has problems with freezing/crashing! sony's do, Pannny's do, Arcam's always do, and even Tag's....
     
  16. Messiah

    Messiah
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2002
    Messages:
    7,530
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    106
    Ratings:
    +339
    Nope. I have a SD900 and I know it does Pseudo PAL PS but if you ring leconcepts they apparently have a firmware disk which they are using to upgrade all new ones sold to FULL PAL PS (not pseudo).

    Unfortunately they will not sell copies of the disk. Anyway, this is what they are saying which you can very easily check out yourself.

    Snowman: all the responses above are referring to the SD900. Not sure if that was the intention of the original post but definietly the model everyone seems to be asking about.
     
  17. Timh

    Timh
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2000
    Messages:
    4,819
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    86
    Location:
    Altair-4
    Ratings:
    +140
    I wonder if this applys to my SD-510, afterall this model only came out earlier this year.

    If this is true it would be very interesting to hear Toshiba's comments on this subject.
     
  18. Blu-rayx

    Blu-rayx
    Member

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2001
    Messages:
    2,106
    Products Owned:
    6
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    66
    Location:
    n/a
    Ratings:
    +217
    i'll ring leconcepts,but i now belive toshiba that the 900E can't output true PAL PS.

    dvd
     
  19. TimF

    TimF
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    Following this thread (desparate to find a pal progressive player in the uk for reasonable money!) just phoned LE concepts myself.

    They confirmed that Tosh 900 outputs pseudo pal progressive only and not true pal progressive which is available on the 9500

    Oh well

    Looks like its a Philips or a Denon (If firmware gets sorted)
     
  20. Messiah

    Messiah
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2002
    Messages:
    7,530
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    106
    Ratings:
    +339
    Hmmm. Diferent stories. I've just rung them again and they're gonna get back to me. Bu**er if it now turns out to be a mistake and if so apologies for raising peoples hopes and defying other posts in this thread :mad:
     
  21. Cool-hand

    Cool-hand
    Member

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2002
    Messages:
    2,105
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    51
    Location:
    Portsmouth / Middle East
    Ratings:
    +77
    Yes M. You must not DEFY the AV Gods or your system will be sentenced to many bugs and endless problems....





    :p
     
  22. juboy

    juboy
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    What is interesting is that the Tosh 510 is powered by the Zoran Vaddis V processor... which I belive is also at the heart of the PAL progressive Arcam DVD players.

    Surely this would suggest that the Tosh 510 *could* be capable of PAL progressive... although whether this is a firmware or more 'hands on' upgrade is another story.
     
  23. Timh

    Timh
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2000
    Messages:
    4,819
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    86
    Location:
    Altair-4
    Ratings:
    +140
    juboy

    Interesting info, I will have to take a look under the bonnet and see whats there.

    cheers
     
  24. sounddog

    sounddog
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2002
    Messages:
    3,373
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    107
    Location:
    Leicestershire, UK
    Ratings:
    +461
    Come on guys ...

    Where when it was sold to you was it ever indicated that they may produce new firmware to upgrade it to PAL Progressive?

    Toshiba are a company not a charity for you.

    Yes they COULD (possibly) produce new firmware for all their old NTSC Prog Scan machines which would let them do PAL Prog ... but programmers don't work for peanuts ... How much would you be prepared to pay for the upgraded firmware ... how many people would be even interested in it.

    I know there are companies (like Arcam) who do upgrade their players ... but generally these are quite expensive HARDWARE upgrades.


    Just my 2p worth anyway ...
    Victoria
     
  25. Timh

    Timh
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2000
    Messages:
    4,819
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    86
    Location:
    Altair-4
    Ratings:
    +140
    juboy

    Yes, the 510 does contain the Zoran Vaddis V processor..
    It would be interesting to know the reason why they won't release an upgrade.
     
  26. sounddog

    sounddog
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2002
    Messages:
    3,373
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    107
    Location:
    Leicestershire, UK
    Ratings:
    +461
    Are you really that nieve ...

    The won't release an upgrade because for what they get in return they would have to invest too much ... would probably cost you more than the nice shiny new 530 that they're bound to release which DOES have PAL Prog (unlike the 520). They also hope that (apart from no Prog Scan) you've found their product meets your needs and is high quality and that you will buy a NEW 530 (or whatever) when it's released.

    If you wanted a player that could be upgraded ... then you have to buy one that is "advertised" as being upgradable ... not buy something cheep and then moan when the manufacturer won't upgrade it.

    I'm not saying they're right in their attitude ... just thats what attitude most consumer electronics companies have ... DVD players, etc are throwaway items ... they don't expect to upgrade them. Yes I agree if there is a problem and certain disks won't play they **should** provide a patch for the firmwear ... but what you want is an UPGRADE to the features weather you like it or not.



    I'm sorry if this and my last post sound like trolls/flamebait ... but its true ... you have to either live with it ... or hope some third party can provide you with a relevant alternative.


    Victoria.
     
  27. Timh

    Timh
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2000
    Messages:
    4,819
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    86
    Location:
    Altair-4
    Ratings:
    +140
    Hi Victoria

    I guess I am :) But if Philips, Arcam, Limit & Harman Kardon can do it, I'm sure Toshiba can.
     
  28. sounddog

    sounddog
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2002
    Messages:
    3,373
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    107
    Location:
    Leicestershire, UK
    Ratings:
    +461
    I don't know about the "upgrades" of the others ... but Arcam do HARDWARE upgrades.

    I believe if was only in error that their DV88 with prog scan board allowed PAL Prog Scan ... or thats what they tell MacroVision anyway :)

    And wasn't the Philips hacked by a third party to provide prog scan ... not an upgrade to provided by Philips themselves ...

    Oh and I believe (but not positive) that Limit is not actually "approved" by the DVD Consortium or whatever they call themselves so do pretty much what they like.

    The whole point of the thread is that Tosh won't provide new features on their DVD player via a firmware upgrade. Now if someone else hacks their player so that it does PAL prog scan, then thats perfectly leagal (at least it is currently ...) but you then (rightly or wrongly) will probably loose support from Tosh if there is a later problem.

    I'm not saying that Tosh's attitude is right ... I'm just thinking that you are expecting too much especially as I'm sure you'd all want the firmware to be provided free or a minimal cost ... what would you be prepared to pay ... £50 ... £100 ... £250 ... how much?


    Victoria
     
  29. juboy

    juboy
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    sounddog: basically, you're entirely correct.

    Toshiba sell their low/mid end players at a price point that assumes the buyer will simply purchase the most up to date/latest feature set player rather than have them produce firmware updates.

    If I'd paid £1000 for my 510, I would demand the firmware upgrade... as I paid roughly 25% of that amount for the 510 I realise I'll need to get that onto eBay and then buy the 530 (or whatever they call it) when it's released.

    I do however think that the cost of producing the firmware upgrade to a chip that has already been programmed to produce PAL progressive would be next to nothing and pressing up a few thousand dics would again cost next to nothing.

    So, on the one hand, no, Tosh have no responsibility to provide the firmware but on the other hand, would it *really* be that much of a hassle compared to the good will it would generate?
     

Share This Page

Loading...