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Did anyone see the Gadget show last night DLP vs LCD?

Discussion in 'Projectors, Screens & Video Processors' started by Tempest, Mar 19, 2005.

  1. Tempest

    Tempest
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    Interesting little snipped on the Gadjet show late last night.

    DLP vs LCD for £1000

    They had a Hitachi TX100 and a Infocus 4805 running side by side.

    In the setup which INFURIATES me why shops don't do and retailers seem so reluctant to try (think they keep tight lipped so they don't hurt their sales)

    Both projectors were running at the SAME time, on the SAME wall, showing the SAME images - Side by Side.

    So, sitting back you could watch both together (exactly what should be done)

    Out of the two people watching, one correctly guesses which one was which, the other got it the wrong way round.

    But both preferred the LCD screen (even though they were not told which was which)
    Brighter, sharper, clearer with a more alive look to the screen were both their kind of comments.

    A good blind test, done the way it should be :smashin:
     
  2. WonkyEwok

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    The test was a great idea (and I've got the TX-100) but I wonder about:
    * Did they set up the brightness, contrast and saturation of each? The TX-100 picture looked much more saturated, but maybe that's just out of the box settings; possibly the 4805 could have looked as 'good' with a few button presses.
    * Did they even set the aspect ratio correctly? It looked a bit like the 4805 was stretching the picture sideways, or the TX-100 was stretching it vertically.

    Don't get me wrong, I think the TX-100 has higher resolution than the 4805, + I've got it (and like it loads) because I see rainbows with single DLPs, but comparisons need to be really fair.
     
  3. Tempest

    Tempest
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    I know what you are saying...........
    And yes, the LCD did seem more saturated, though it's hard to say without actually being there.

    On the counter side though, why SHOULD they be calibrated ?
    I'm not sure how they did it, but for the consumer:

    Take it out the box and run them side by side is the fairest test.
    Why should consumers be expected to set up something?
    Most people just buy a TV and turn it on.
    They don't think to calibrate it.
    You buy a car and drive it, you don't expect to have to fine tune the engine settings before it runs smoothly.
    I know I'm being a bit silly here, but really these things should be set up near perfect anyway. My AE200 is about dead on out the box and I know others are, so I think it was fair to run the test like this really.

    They didn't mention any rainbows which could have been another negative point about the DLP.
    I still wonder how many people who don't know what a DLP and a Rainbow is would actually report them.

    I've shown my LCD to some (who know nothing) and they say nothing about LCD screen door, I can see it, but they just accept it as what it is.
     
  4. Oakleyspatz

    Oakleyspatz
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    I would have liked to have seen that prog. I own a 4805 and think it's the mutt's. I can certainly see the LCD being brighter, but on longer viewing sessions, other factors come into play such as accurate colour rendition ( The 4805 is calibrated to D65) video processing ( 4805 has top of the line Faroudja de-interlacer), Contrast ratio (4805 has 2200:1 compared to the TX100's 1200:1) and smoothness of picture ( I see no pixelation on an 80 inch image from 9 foot away).
    So if the LCD looked more impressive to begin with, I put that down to the higher brightness and colour saturation, not necessarily because it produces the best, most accurate image.With the iris set to max, the brightness is indeed much higher than the 4805, but blacks suffer considerably as a result. even set to give best contrast, the TX100 is still miles away from the blacks the 4805 can achieve.
    So having to set up a pj out of the box is nearly always recommended because pjs can have different applications such as presentations or home cinema or bright rooms or blacked out rooms etc. etc. So correct calibration is needed to suit the environment it is to be used in. The TX100 may well have been left in high brightness mode and the 4805 in home theatre mode which will result in very different images.

    But then I would be biased wouldn't I !!!!!
     
  5. PJTX100

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    Gosh I wish I'd have seen this!

    Good to know the TX was the preferred pic, I always wondered what the 4805 would look like side-by-side - it sounds an impressive machine.

    I have the factory defaults stored as memory 1 - and the pic does look far more saturated and less "alive" than the settings I now have stored in memory 3, shadow detail is better now too.

    Is the gadget show repeated?

    Judging by the numerous comparative reviews and now this first hand visual comparison it does show that the TX is no slouch (for the price). If Hitachi sorted out their service and warranty they'd have a very popular machine on their hands!

    ...PJ :)
     
  6. MikeRJ

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    The Hitachi has a much higher native resolution than the 4805 dosen't it?
     
  7. Jonny1973

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    I was a bit disappointed by the programme, whilst they made mention of the screen door effect that plagues LCD, they completely ignored the DLP's rainbow effect. Contrast ratio was also ignored completely.

    Both Jason and John said that they prefered the more detailed LCD picture, but what they didn't say why. You get more pixels for your money with LCD which explains the extra detail.

    Who calibrated the projectors???? The LCD was way over saturated whilst the DLP was under saturated.

    Do you think this week prize of a Sony HS50 LCD projector had anything to do with the outcome of the test?????

    I think it's a positive that projectors are appearing on mainstream telly and hopefully more people will go down this route instead of plasma screens.
     
  8. Tempest

    Tempest
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    Yeah, I know what you mean..........

    But part of me still thinks the following:

    1: Buy 2 projectors.

    2: Don't adjust anything (you should not be expected to as it's a consumer product which is being marketed and sold as a cinema projector)

    3: Set them up running next 2 each other running same movie

    4: Get some people in who know nothing about them to tell them which they like best

    That's the way these things should really be tested.


    Getting people in to fiddle and tweak the settings after you have bought them, then get experts? in who know the pro's and con's and have built in bias for what they like of what they think is the better tech.
    That's not the way to do it.
     
  9. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    Actually this exactly how not to do a comparison.

    To get a correct comparison of the two they should each be evaluated while the other is off. The excess light washing back off the screen on to the other will affect the contrast capability of both units.

    At Event2 we had 6 projectors all firing at the same screen. At any one time we only had one unit firing at the screen (the others were masked off with black velvet). They were all fixed pixel devices except a CRT unit we had. The day after the event when we packed away all the fixed pixel devices it became completely apparent that the CRT's performance had been seriously compromised due to the amount of ambient light the fixed pixels stuck in to the room from their light spillage. I have no doubt that it may even have affected the performance of the single chip DLP that was in the room.....if we'd had 6 screens with all the pj;s firing at different ones it would have been a joke......

    This couldn't have been a serious comparison..just a bit of fun.

    Gordon
     
  10. cerebros

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    They both said the LCD image was sharper and had more contrast, and one of them (the one who guessed wrongly as to which was which), said the one that turned outo to be the DLP looked a bit smeary.
     
  11. PJTX100

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    I doubt whether Hitachi, or Infocus for that matter, will see it that way!

    OK I get your point about ambient light but it affected both equally?

    I am certainly not against DLP and tire of the constant "watch for rainbows" bandwagon, even though it is legitimate for the minority.

    But I remember recent comments to the effect "the Sony HS50 is the only option if you suffer from rainbows", dismissing the performance of any LCD when pitched against even a budget DLP such as the 4805.

    These were strong words. And judging by comparative reviews and this programme, unjustified.

    I would like LCD to completely scare the **** out of TI and DLP manufacturers so they get their act together and produce a high res unit without the elitist pricing. Then I could afford one!

    ...PJ :)

    Edit... and horiz/vert lens shift too! :)
     
  12. hornydragon

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    I learnt alot about comparitive testing, they were testing the out box settings, not the performance, and there are lots of dealers who will put 2 PJ's in the same room for you to compare, (ever seen a split screen demo? 2 PJs masked of half of the picture and projecting onto the same screen! great comparison or as gordon likes to say "bit of fun") was there any mention of screen gain? a PJ is a two part system and needs matching!
     
  13. cerebros

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    To be honest, they were projecting onto a large white walll if my memory serves me correctly...
     
  14. Tempest

    Tempest
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    Yes, it was just really a bit of fun.

    6 projectors at once is a bit overkill :)

    Just take out the box and run them (as joe average might do)

    Was Interesting as I'd have thought the DLP would have won this blind test.
    I've only ever seen one DLP in my life and that looked dull (against a Z1 at the time) but I've no idea what it was.

    I'm sure the techies will argue, but I still feel it was a resonable thing to do.
    Hey most of the people I work with don't even know what DLP is, what Screendoor is, it's just a picture and it's big, that's about it.
     
  15. Gary Lightfoot

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    Even with out of the box settings, you still have lots of settings to choose from. Who's to say that one was set optimal for video and one was set for PC presentations in a well lit room for example?

    If you had two athletes and one was in high heals, and the other in spiked running shoes, would that be a fair comparison? :)

    Gary.
     
  16. Timbo21

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    I've tested 4 diferent projectors in last week. Here's what I thought..

    1. Sharp XV Z200
    Good, but may be slight more picture noise than I would like. DVI only small
    improvement to component.

    2. Panasonic 700
    Very detailed & sharp, but with vertical banding

    3. Screenplay 5700 (3 different ones)
    Good picture, especially on DVI, but noticed rainbows on Lost In Translation
    & each time I've felt a strain in my eyes after about half hour

    4. Screenplay 7205
    Couldn't fault this one. Lovely picture no rainbows and no eye strain, probably
    due to faster wheel.

    LCD Vs. DLP Well the Panasonic is great for the price & you get 720p resolution.
    It is very detailed, BUT I found the picture was quite cold & clinical & was like watching a big TV rather than getting that cinema feeling I got from DLP. The only
    projector I couldn't find fault with was the 7205, well I guess you get what you pay for (we hope!!!). Looks like I'll be saving my pennies.
     
  17. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    They are not affected equally. The device with the best black levels will be most compromised. The way that fixed pixel devices tend to get their increases in contrast is by getting black levels down not by getting light levels up. So the reality is the brighter projector (most likey with the worse contrast to start with is at an unfair advantage)

    There are obviously other areas that affect image quality.

    Gordon
     
  18. Oakleyspatz

    Oakleyspatz
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    Well, we ALL know that the 4805 knocks spots off the TX100 in terms of contrast ratio. The 2200:1 of the DLP 4805 is considerably better than the 1200:1 of the LCD. If the LCD seriously had better contrast then the 4805 must have been set purposely to look bad !!
     
  19. Tempest

    Tempest
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    Or perhaps to the NON Techy (joe average) person....

    Given two screens side by side, the one with the brighter clearer (more vivid) image would always win out over the one with the duller image but better black levels.

    One is in your face obvious, the other has to be pointed out to you.
    My black levels are not great (and I know it) but no-one who has ever seen it (who is not into projectors) has ever said "Ohh, that blacks a bit grey isn't it"
    They've only said, "Ohh, what a lovely big bright clear picture"
     
  20. MikeK

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    Just take out the box and run them (as joe average might do)

    With projectors, it wouldn't be a valid test unless the light outputs were the same.

    Try a HS50 against a presentation "light cannon" onto a 12ft wide screen and see which one looked dim then! :) Then try the same test on a 6ft wide screen and see which one looked way overbright and washed out! And that's without tweaking anything else!
     
  21. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    Tempest: You are quite incorrect. Side by side this is the case but viewed in isolation our perception will be the unit with the largest dark to bright contrast will appear brighter and punchier... ..Hence the necessity to actually set things up correctly in order to come to valid conclusions.

    I have no doubt folk say those things about your projector. I own neither of those models on test and couldn't care less which is better....just pointing out the flaw. I'm not saying if they did it correctly the TX100 would lose....I'm just saying it was a crap way to do a comparison. If you want to go about choosing your next PJ using this method then go ahead but you may actually end up not getting the best image qualiity for your money and I'd hope that is something we would all want. VFM

    Gordon
     
  22. PJTX100

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    ... or it could be that technical specs were less influential than the overall experience of sitting and looking at the pics side by side?

    It's interesting that 'cause the TX was preferred people are suggesting conspiracy or it's down to the comparison being poorly set up.

    Had it been the other way round, would anyone have blinked an eye?

    I bet overall the machines are close, very close. But just because it didn't turn out as expected, don't just poo poo it. Hey, just maybe the TX does produce a slightly more enjoyable image... for some people... for a small majority even?

    ...PJ :)
     
  23. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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  24. Oakleyspatz

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    A bright image with a lower contrast ratio will look grey and lack impact compared to a slightly dimmer image with a higher contrast ratio. It is the amount of difference between the lightest part and the darkest part of the image which determines the 'punch' or 'impact' the image has. That is why a presentation projector with a brightness of 2000 lumens and a contrast ratio of 500:1 will not have the impact of a 1000 lumens projector with a contrast of 2000:1. That is a fact.
    Most presentation projectors have XGA resolution but this doesn't mean that it automatically produces a better, more filmic image than a VGA resolution projector made specifically for home theatre use. DLP naturally produces a less pixelated image than an equivalent LCD projector.
    I just think that on paper, the 4805 SHOULD produce the better image, maybe not the brightess, maybe not the highest resolution, but the most filmic image.
    But as the show illustrated, to the uneducated eye, initial impact is everything and the brighter image won.
    It is also possible that being a 4805 owner makes me a little biased !!!
     
  25. Tempest

    Tempest
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    If that's how they walked onto the track ready for the race then yes, if you can't be bothered to have yourself ready for the best performance as standard then why should you win?

    (if you get my drift!)
     
  26. Tempest

    Tempest
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    It was a valid test as they were the same price, sold to the same public for the same use.
    The technology is irrelevant really in this instance.

    I know this has hit some nerves and I know I'm playing devils advocate here rather. I'm just trying to see it from a non techy (eg all of us) point of view.

    That's why you can't compair the HS50 to the 4805 as one is 60% (ish) deared than the other, so it should be better.

    Things are not always this clear though unfortinatly.

    Tonight I let my mum watch Finding Nemo with me.

    She thought it was fantastic.
    Kept commenting about how lovely the picture was.

    I could see screen door, she could not (as she does not know what it is)
    I could see the blacks were grey (she never noticed it as that's just how it is)

    She was watching and enjoying the film, not looking at the technical espects of the picture.
     
  27. theritz

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    No one who reads your posts could possibly think that you're biased about the 4805........ :devil:


    Maybe it would be easier for yourself and PJ to settle this definitively - first one to 100 posts extolling the virtues of their projector, complete with screenshots ???? :D


    As far as the topic is concerned, I didn't see the program in question so can't comment on it specifically. I would not regard a side-by-side setup as ideal, partly for the reasons Gordon sets out, and partly because I think that looking from one image to another while a movie is playing is not going to tell you anything useful. I've seen side-by-side demos, and have found it easier and more accurate to watch the same material (from the same source) in an A/B situation - first on one and then on the other. You get sufficient time to absorb the image and, if you're familiar with the material, to make judgements about the performance of the projectors.

    I also agree that having the projectors calibrated, even for brightness and contrast, as set out in Gary's excellent "sticky", would be a very big plus..... and quite straightforward to do. The very least you want when making comparisons is a level playing field.

    S.
     
  28. Oakleyspatz

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    EVERYONE thinks Finding Nemo looks good..... On anything !!!
     
  29. Tempest

    Tempest
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    He He........ Actually she thinks it's superb whatever film she see's.....

    On finding nemo where they swim down into the dark depths (where they eventually meet up with that fish with a light dangleling in front of it)

    For some time, the screen is totally black with just speech.
    Now to me. It looks grey, but it's only that I know I'm looking at a limitation of my projector/setup.
    She's just watching the film and does not give it a second thought.
     
  30. Tempest

    Tempest
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    I kinda agree and disagree with you on this one. :)

    I know what you are saying about seeing one and appreciating it on it's own, then seeing another.

    But as I have had pointed out to me MANY times on here, your eye/brain has an automatic white balance, and given a few moments of any whitish thing, you will be fooled into thinking it's white as it's your only frame of reference.

    Like the ceiling in my room looks white as it's white compaired to the dark walls and there's nothing to compaire it to, until you hold a sheet of very white paper against it, when you can see it's grey (icestorm 5 actually)

    Having 2 side by side, would directly allow you to compaire how white the white was and how black the black was as your eyes/brain are not being fooled as you have a comparison all the time.

    (if you get what I mean)
     

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