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Diagonal lines on Sony Is it indicative of LCD

Discussion in 'Projectors, Screens & Video Processors' started by Malone, Apr 8, 2002.

  1. Malone

    Malone
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    I have recently taken delivery of a demo Sony 10 HT and initially was a little disappointed. AV Sales kindly lent me a PJ for a demo but didn't have a screen at that point so the picture was projected onto a greenish wall. That evening during viewing every time the camera panned or moved there were clearly diagonal lines on various parts of the picture but as soon as the motion slowed or stopped the pic was fine. Unfortunately DVD or PS2 is my only option of source material(due to S Video constraint's) 2 days later AV Sales kindly had a screen delivered so I could set it up as I had originally planned, screen in the bay window and PJ on back wall. Now the viewing from this position was much better and after viewing Hannibal I hadn't seen any lines, problem solved, but then when going through my collection the diagonal lines re-appeared. Now admittedly they weren't as bad but at the moment my mrs is jumping on any reason not to have the projector so if anybody has a 10 HT and hasn't any of these problems please post a reply, the more ammunition the better.

    P.S In general the picture is beautiful and most certainly involves you more in the film than a CRT tubed Tv does. I LIVE IN HOPE !!!!!!!!
     
  2. LV426

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    Can you be a bit more descriptive about what you mean by "diagonal lines"?

    If you mean "shallow diagonal straightish sharp lines in the original film appear jagged or with steps in them when moving, but these steps tend to disappear when still"

    then what you are seeing is the TV scan line structure of the video signal, otherwise known as aliasing.

    It can be minimised, on DVDs which are anamorphic/16x9/enhanced... by setting the DVD player's output to 16x9, if not already done, and setting the PJ's aspect ratio to "full".

    It can be further minimised by using a component connection and a progressive scan DVD player.

    If you mean something else, please describe.
     
  3. General Skanky

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    It could also be combated by turning down the sharpness. If it's the same as me, when using S Video (and only on S Video, other connections should be ok), you get diagonal lines like a hatching effect. By turning down the sharpness they become less and less visible. The trade off is a loss of focus/clarity, but it's a better picture.

    Maybe.:rolleyes: :D
     
  4. Malone

    Malone
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    Well first of all thanks for the input, the answer I think is no, not lines already present in the film.
    The only way I can describe them are, during movement of the camera or in shall we say Toy Story 2 the appearance of movement you can see 45 degree lines like the back slash on a keyboard(ie leaning to the right) moving in portions of the picture sometimes taking up 80% of the picture sometimes just a small area say 15% this varies and is present in any films the odd thing is I watched(as I said in the 1st post) Hannibal and saw none throughout the film, but when watching say Shrek they are quite noticeable, I appear to have all the right settings ie 16:9 on the DVD and full through on the pj (as the screen lent to me is too small for full). Hope this is more informative, I spoke to Sony technical and they say they've never experienced them, so,well any ideas?????
     
  5. Pip_UK

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    Malone,

    I had the same problem but only watching ditital tv. The reason you can't see them during Hannibal is due to the dark and muted colours. I only saw them on big areas of bright colours such as The Simpsons or face close-ups. I pinpointed it the RGB to s-video convertor. In fact, even putting the diagonal mesh artefact aside, the picture wasn't any better than composite.

    I have sent the RGB converter back.

    Pip
     
  6. LV426

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    Thanks for the further description. The next thing to check for, then, is interference in the connecting cables, possibly from a nearby mains cable.

    Suggest you try to move the connecting cables to a different position and/or use a different make of cable.

    I don't know how you have your hardware set up, but you could try placing the DVD player, temporarily, very close to the PJ (eg if it is ceiling mounted, on a stepladder) and connecting the two together using a very short cable, to see if it makes a difference. If it does, it would indicate interference in the normal cable and would indicate the need to reposition, or replace the cable.

    Please let us know how you get on.
     
  7. Malone

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    Well im sorry to say, being at work today i've only seen your post just now and unfortunately the demo pj has got to go back today so im out of time. The good thing is after the original move (as stated in the 1st post) it certainly improved and I watched pitch black last night and also true lies and would you believe the lines were knowhere to be seen so I would imagine it had to be an interference of some kind. Now the difficult decision, is the 11HT worth the extra £1000 odd.
    I demo'ed a PLV30 about 9 months ago and wasn't that impressed, the chicken wire effect was quite noticeable and after seeing this 10HT it was leaps and bounds over and above the Sanyo, so again is the 11HT £1000 of an improvement on the 10.
    Decisions, decisions, decisions. Im going to look around for a few reviews on the 11 but any views on the subject would be appreciated, and thanks again for assistance all:) :)

    P.S Oh, and the wife has said YES !!
    :eek: :eek: :D :D

    P.P.S Well after looking around the net and various well known gear reviews( HCC included) it appears no-one has reviewed this pj(unless somebody knows otherwise) So any sites with reviews or personal experience would be readily, well, read

    Ta

    Matt
     
  8. Me

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    The Sanyo PLV-30 is in a very different price leauge to the Sony projectors you mention. If you are thinking of spending this kind of money you must look at the Sim2 projectors,SanyoPLV-60, other DLP units, and dont forget CRT. All are as good and some would say surpass the Sonys in image quality. One thing that put me of the Sony 10HT was its poor black level and I could not find a single demo of this projector that did not show a dead pixel.
    I have been looking at a Sanyo PLV-60 for a dedicated room I am try to build and I am very impressed with the picture. The Sim2 HT200 is also very good and the thought of no dust problems is also appealing.
    Mark
     
  9. Malone

    Malone
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    Thanks for the points Mark, I was under the impression that the PLV-60 and the DLP's were £6000 ish and the 11HT I was looking at from a Sony agent is £4500 (which is £1000 more than I had anticipated) so £4500 is really pushin the limit of what I am going to spend, I had initially thought of an electric screen but this would be £350 ish more than a manual so heck getting up to pull down a screen isn't to much of an hardship.

    Matt......
     
  10. LV426

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    In defence of the Sony (I have a VW10) I'd say:

    - Yes the black levels are not as good as those from DLP devices. But they can be hugely improved with the addition of a pink colour correcting filter (eg CC20R or CC30R) and a corresponding tweak to the coloyr balance - which cost me £10.50 to buy and took me about 10 minutes to tweak). The 11 has better contrast than the 10, but the same improvement can also be made in the same way.

    - Mine has a single failed (bright) green pixel. Although I know where it is, I have difficulty finding it, let alone noticing it, when I'm looking at normal viewing distance (which is about 1.5x the screen width). Each LCD [anel in the Sony has just over a million pixels, so a failed one is less than a millionth of the screen area. Honestly, if you saw my setup, and I told you to find the bad pixel, you would be unable to do so from normal viewing distance.

    If you can get a left-over VW10 within your budget - you should consider doing so, and audition one, in the recognition that you can improve the black levels as described. It reduced the brightness of black I estimate by about half, without affecting the brightness of white.
     
  11. Pip_UK

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    Malone,

    I agree with Nigel ... I have the 11HT and I personally think it surpasses the SIM2 in every way.

    I had a demo of the HT200DM and the picture was good but not fantastic. You have to sit in the dark to get a reasonable picture and outdoor scenes look artificial and you cannot adjust the colour to correct it (problem with all single chip DLP's). Digital TV also lacked vibrance.

    The 11HT picture is fantastic out of the box and its contrast levels rival most single chip DLP's. I watch cable tv with the lights on (spotlights dimmed) and the picture, even on composite is very watchable.

    Watching R1 DVD's via component leads using the pj's progressive scan produces the best pictue I have ever seen ... even for a CRT TV ... the HT200DM didn't come anywhere close to matching this quality.

    As for dead pixels ... I agree with Nigel. I have one dead red pixel towards the edge of the screen ... I had to point it out to my friends before they were even aware of it.

    I believe DLP technology is a few years away from being a viable consumer option (wait for 3chip DLP's). LCOS also has a way to go although many believe this will overtake DLP as the next output standard of HT projector technology.

    The experts on this forum all agree that it is all down to personal taste. Having recently moved, I had a house warming party last week. I had my PJ showing a recent music compilation DVD via component. It was the focus of my party and the look on everyone's faces said it all .... awe and envy! I lost count of the number of times I heard the word "Wicked"!!

    I got my 11T from 2gocamcorder (http://www.go2camcorder.co.uk) for £3600. I was well impressed with their service. My PJ arrived by courier in 10 days ... they even rang me to confirm a delivery date.

    Pip
     
  12. tahustvedt

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    Yesterday I sat down to watch Demolition Man on my Hitachi LCD-projector. I instantly noticed lots of 45° diagonal lines in the picture which I had never seen before. I thought it was just an mpeg-artifact in this particular movie and continued to watch. As I paused the film to go have a **** I noticed that the diagonal lines formed a horisontal band over the center of the picture and were movingslightly. That's when I realized that it wasn't in the movie. I looked around to see if I had turned on any electric appliances that might interfere with the projector or DVD-player and notice that my VCR was on. Apparently, the composite signal from the VCR was interfering with the projector when watching DVD-movies on component. I just turned off the VCR and the diagonal lines disappeared!


    Tor Arne
     
  13. LV426

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    Yep, that sounds about right.
     
  14. Malone

    Malone
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    Oh well here goes.

    Decided on buying the VW11HT and after saying in an earlier thread "the diagonal lines have now disappeared on the loan pj"well there back, I cant understand it, I spent £35 on a decent 10m IXOS S-Video lead but they've come back with a vengeance, unfortunately I also have a bright blue pixel drop out too so its gone back to Sony for asessment. Luckily I have been lent a 10HT and guess what the friggin lines have disappeared. Im beginning to pull my hair out. I dont see it when im running PS2 games through the same lead which suggests its the DVD.

    For the record I have a DSP-AX1 as my hub, everything connects to this and I have the Ixos lead going from the monitor out to the PJ, having said that surely if it was the DVD with the problem it would cause these lines continually.
    I have seen the picture running without the lines and Im really pleased with the image but I cannot put up with these poxy lines its driving me mad!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    PLEASE any other IDEAS :confused: :mad: :confused: :(
     
  15. General Skanky

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    Sounds silly, but have you wiggled leads to see if you can induce the problem?

    I would disconnect everything! and remove all! wiring, (big pain in the backside), then reconnect one by one and see what happens. By isolating and seeing what goes on is the best way to see the problem.

    From what I've read, a dodgey solder joint in a cable somewhere or the like seems to be the source of your problem, or something like that.

    Otherwise I'm stumped too. :confused:
     
  16. Malone

    Malone
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    Well I must admit I haven't tried it but its definitely worth a go.

    Oh and they've re-appeared again (whilst watching The Emperors New Groove) tonight but only minimal so i'll have a play after sunset tomorrow(cant eradicate light in the room)

    Regards Matt.......
     
  17. Malone

    Malone
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    Well, took my whole system apart today hoovered in connections cleaned wires re-layed power cables to avoid close proximity to picure cables, completely tidied everything up. I am now waiting for sundown so I can test the PJ, heres hoping !!!!!!!!
     
  18. Dick Scratcher

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    Malone,

    Why are you waiting until sundown? If the problem only occurs at night then it is hardly likely to be your kit as inanimate objects have no concept of sunlight:D In such a case I would suggest that there is extraneous interference as a result of something happening only at night. Do you switch on an electric fire, use dimmable lighting or switch some other electrical equipment on that you ordinarily don't switch on during the day?

    Are you using the same power lead with the 10 that came with the 11? Is your PJ ceiling mounted? Is it near copper water pipes? Is water heated by electricity in your house? Do you have the heating on mostly at night? Are your copper pipes and other structural metalwork properly earthed? Do you get colour staining on your CRT TV? Have you ever had to degauss your TV? Do you plug the PJ power lead into the wall socket or via an extension lead, if you use an extension does it have a proper earth or is it double insulated?

    I realise that LCD is less prone to electromagnetic interference than CRT but the internal electronics will still be highly susceptible to EM radiation. The intermittent nature of the fault suggests something other than your kit hence my question about the relevance of the time of day.
     
  19. Malone

    Malone
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    Well thanks for the input, firstly the reason I watch it after sundown is purely of light in room reasons, even with lined curtains theres still to much ambient light in the room so I tend not to bother till about 19.00 ish.
    As for the other points no to the fire, no dimmers,no other equipment other than the Amp and DVD. Yes its the same lead but an update to my last reply its been on and off with the 1st 10Ht then the 11Ht and now the other loan 10HT so as to my original post its either "indicative of LCD" which I doubt or I have some other problem. The lines last night after I tidied up all the leads were much better but nevertheless still appeared, sometimes a small portion of the screen and sometimes the whole picture.
    I just dont understand it, I have been in the television business for 15+ years and I understand about picture interference from various factors such as radiators and speaker magnets(purity) which is why I bought LCR S2's so as to avoid this(which wouldn't relate to a screen) also aerial and modulator interference which is not relevant in this case so Im running out of ideas.
    I hope that all makes sense.....

    Matt...........:confused:
    P.S There are are no pipes or internal wires in the wall, but it is running of a twin extension lead(the one that wraps up inside a plastic case) but unfortunately the mains socket is too far away, as too your question about the earth I dont know, I was in the installation side rather than the service side and I must admit too being a bit lacking in knowledge of electrical connections.

    Matt........
    P.S.S

    but my LCRS2 as a rear center is directly underneath and facing upwards roughly 3 feet below Pj, could this be it???????????

    P.S.S.S
    Err nope that cant be it cos when I first got the loan one (without screen) it was the opposite side of the room projecting onto the wall with no speaker close to it. ... Oh well just a thought.......(and i still had lines)
     
  20. Malone

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    Well, still got the loan 10HT, these lines are worse than ever admittedly I haven't changed the lead but I have connected my Sky into amp as composite and then my amp to pj with phono's and guess what no lines. Its got to be the lead im going to get another lead tomorrow and see if that cures it.
     
  21. Guest

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    Malone - I can sympathise with you. I received my VW11 about 3 weeks ago & yes I get the diagonal lines when the picture pans etc. Exactly as you describe. I have put it down to my reasonably crap dvd player (Tosh SD2109) and a 12 m s-video cable.

    I have considered upgrading to a Tosh SD510 or SD900 which with a component output (i think) should get rid of this problem, but after reading your posts I am having my doubts.

    Have you tried using anything with a component out?

    Feccy
     
  22. ben_it

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    Do the lines look similar to this picture?

    http://www.techmind.org/vd/tennisd.jpg

    If so, its the colour subcarrier breaking through into the luminance, now if you are not seeing this with the PS2 (which would probably have very saturated colours) it suggests its occuring in the DVD player.

    Do you have anything connected via SCART to your DVD player, if so have you tried to see if the lines disappear if you remove this.

    See you earlier,

    Steven
     
  23. StevenBagley

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    Hmm, bizaare -- how on earth did the board let me post as someone else?!?!?

    My apologies to ben_it

    See you earlier,

    Steven
     
  24. Graham

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    Hi

    I recently bought a Toshiba SD 510 player for my Panasonic AE100 projector, and tested between interlaced / progressive with the dvd player's remote.

    The film Se7en (i've got the R1 Sp Ed) is a great one to test the difference - if you watch near the end of the film, when all the pylons pan across the screen, the diagonal lines are very jagged in interlaced mode until the camera stops panning, when they become 'normal' again.

    In progressive mode, they look very stable during the camera pans.

    Also, during the chapter 'John Doe' the difference between the two modes is very pronounced - the brick wall, edges of cars & lines of the building look so much more solid in progressive: it's much smoother & there's far less flicker.

    It really does make a difference having a progressive signal, it should hopefully cure these problems

    Best of luck
     
  25. Malone

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    Well Feccy & Steven firstly hooray I was beginning to think I was the only person with this problem, as to the link yes pretty much, however it looks more criss cross in the picture, mine appears to be of that angle but one way only. Its bloody infuriating, I purchased a superbit version of The Patriot the other day and its terrible on that, virtually unwatchable. I have a Sony CX850 and yes Sky is routed through the player in RGB then onto the Tv, the DVD is also connected with a Ixos S-Video lead as well. Do you think this connection could cause a problem, I will have to dis-connect it. I watched Deep Impact last night via Sky in composite and I cant believe how good a picture it produces, it makes it look better probably cos there's no lines??
     
  26. Malone

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    Oh and I forgot to say firstly mines a 10metre lead and the only problem with using component leads is to the best of my knowledge there much more expensive than. My S-Video lead cost £30 and I believe the component is a lot more than that. Also I have a 200 disc changer which is just about full so I would hate to get rid of that to get a component DVD, the only other option is to get a RGB to Component converter when its finished and go that way??????
     
  27. StevenBagley

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    If the lines are only in one direction then it sounds like an NTSC subcarrier -- do you get the same problem with a PAL region 2 disk? or does that look more cross hatch or no problem at all.

    I'd try it with only the DVD player connected to the projector (no audio) -- its quite likely that its not the DVD or projector at all but leakage in another device between the Y and C chanenls on the scart further up.

    See you earlier,

    Steven
     
  28. Malone

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    Well tried disconnecting sky (was running through scart on dvd and back to tv) no difference but, brought a dvdr980 home from work and connected s-video 1 metre lead and hey presto a brill picture no lines whatso-bloody-ever so im going to send this 10 metre lead back for a replacement. What a picture at last im seeing the image as it should be and its mightily impressive!!!!!!!!!!

    Doh why didnt I change the lead earlier all these posts for nix still I enjoyed it.
     
  29. StevenBagley

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    Hmm -- interesting, sounds like crosstalk in the lead somehow. Hopefully a new one will fix it. What happens running the dvdr980 on the 10m SVideo lead?

    See you earlier,

    Steven
     
  30. Malone

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    I know, I know, should of replaced the lead in the 1st place, work and other factors hadn't allowed me to take it back (hours drive).
    Took it back in my hols, when it was looked at,the heat shrink that had been put on either end seemed to have"melted" the solder inside so it was re-soldered minus heat shrink and I was on my jolly way, happy as larry thinking it was solved.
    Arrrrgghhhhhhhhh the lines were still there. After a phone call the shop had a spare Ixos 5 metre lead which they sent for me to try.
    It was a bit short but stretching across the floor it just reached.
    Switched on all the apparatus, pulled the screen down, put on the film which was the worst culprit, Superbit version of The Patriot, NO LINES just a flippin perfect picture, went through some more such as Toy Story 2, just a perfect, sharp, detailed image as good as I could have hoped. So after 1 overjoyed phone call and a new lead on its way, I am now as happy as a pig in s***.

    Thanks for all the input, it has been informative to say the least.

    Regards Matt.............:D :D :D :D :D
     

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