detailed EP10 review

Bugger, even more confused now had my heart set on one of these, now i'm not too sure!!! Going to bed as my head hurts with all this decision making :(
 
This reviewer was using a 80" screen to judge the performance of this model!!
I would imagine a screen that size would reveal flaws in a lot of gear. He may well be right in what he says but to my untrained eye the HDEP10 picture looks great on my 42" plasma. I've had the Tosh for a couple of months now and am absolutely delighted with it. :clap:
 
but to me thats the a large part of hd-dvd, to be able to project images to that size so that you can appreciate the extra resolution on offer.
 
why is nothing ever straight forward, I was going to swap to this one?

have an of these issues been fixed.

http://www.ultimateavmag.com/hddiscplayers/507tosha20/

see page 2.

We know this model derives 1080p output by way of processing its own 1080i/60 signal. IIRC the solution used to achieve this is from NEC. The first observation is that the other Tosh player uses a higher quality and more expensive HQV Reon processor to achieve the same.

The Gennum processor in the PJ also produced a better image fed 1080i/60 than 1080p. Just like the Reon used in the higher model Tosh the Gennum is a higher quality processor.

I think the EP10 is targeted at people who want a tick in the 1080p box but at a lower price. Unfortunately at the moment it appears the compromise is quality compared to the better equiped players and displays. :(

Maybe Tosh can improve the performance via FW but it's a big "maybe". Personally I would spend a bit more for the XE1/XA2. :)

AVI
 
Although that is a review of the US model, I have found the same issues pretty much with the EP10.

I would go one step further though and say I'm not all that impressed with the 1080i picture either. I get jaggies, particulalry noticeable around bright white objects - a good example bing the white on-screen fonts for the 'Children of Men' titles, and indeed the recent 'Heroes' release.

What I don't understand is why the output for scaling HD material is any different from the XE1? Surely the Reon chip in the XE1 is *only* beneficial to standard definition material i.e. regular DVD's?

Either way, I will wait for the outcome of the september firmware update due, and if not noticing any improvement, will upgrade to it's bigger brother...if my resolve holds out in the meantime :D
 
Although that is a review of the US model, I have found the same issues pretty much with the EP10.

I would go one step further though and say I'm not all that impressed with the 1080i picture either. I get jaggies, particulalry noticeable around bright white objects - a good example bing the white on-screen fonts for the 'Children of Men' titles, and indeed the recent 'Heroes' release.

What I don't understand is why the output for scaling HD material is any different from the XE1? Surely the Reon chip in the XE1 is *only* beneficial to standard definition material i.e. regular DVD's?

Either way, I will wait for the outcome of the september firmware update due, and if not noticing any improvement, will upgrade to it's bigger brother...if my resolve holds out in the meantime :D


Geesus

What display are you using ? The video processing in many displays isn't great with 1080i/60 film material. Some of the artefact you mention may be a result of your display rather than the player.

The benefit of the REON is not so much scaling but deinterlacing the players initial 1080i signal to 1080p.

AVI
 
Guess what AVI, you are right - it was an enhancer mode on my tv bringing about the jaggies :suicide::rotfl:

Sorted things now, and the interlaced picture is superb...will have another play with the 1080P tonight, but there was definitely shimmering, for example of brickwork and such like, which is not there at all in 1080i, so Toshiba still have a way to go to improving things on that score.

Watching on an 8G Pioneer plasma.
 
Guess what AVI, you are right - it was an enhancer mode on my tv bringing about the jaggies :suicide::rotfl:

Sorted things now, and the interlaced picture is superb...will have another play with the 1080P tonight, but there was definitely shimmering, for example of brickwork and such like, which is not there at all in 1080i, so Toshiba still have a way to go to improving things on that score.

Watching on an 8G Pioneer plasma.

The other danger is you will always end up with some scaling artefacts at the display end when downscaling from 1080 to the native panel res. If you have MI3 on HD DVD these are some good real world test scenes for video processing.


AVI
 
We know this model derives 1080p output by way of processing its own 1080i/60 signal....

I think the EP10 is targeted at people who want a tick in the 1080p box but at a lower price. Unfortunately at the moment it appears the compromise is quality compared to the better equiped players and displays. :(

Maybe Tosh can improve the performance via FW but it's a big "maybe". Personally I would spend a bit more for the XE1/XA2. :)

AVI

I'm being really dumb about all this:

If a player outputs 1080p/24 does that mean it will always be straight from the disc?

Will the EP10 ever output 1080p/24 stright off the disc

Will the XE1 ever output 1080p/24 striaght off the disc

If they both output 1080p/24 from the disc will picture quality between the two players purely on HD-DVD 1080p/24 be identical?
 
I'm being really dumb about all this:

If a player outputs 1080p/24 does that mean it will always be straight from the disc?

Will the EP10 ever output 1080p/24 stright off the disc

Will the XE1 ever output 1080p/24 striaght off the disc

If they both output 1080p/24 from the disc will picture quality between the two players purely on HD-DVD 1080p/24 be identical?

It depends on how the player is designed i.e. can it bypass the initial 1080i/60 signal stage. We could argue that it's easier to produce 1080p/60 by just repeating the original 1080p/24 frames from the disc but the current players don't work that way. Instead they convert 1080p/24>1080i/60>1080p/60. There may be technical reasons to do it this way to allow the processing of multiple source streams (video based material) in the same image i.e. PIP but I'm not sure.

If they continue to use the same process and derive 1080p/24 from 1080i/60 the quality of video processing will be key. Done well there is no perceivable difference with 1080p/24 derived from 1080i/60 but it does take good quality video processing. :)

AVI
 
so even with a firmware update we don't know wether it will a direct
1080/24 from the disc until the firmware is updated and people test the players?
 
so even with a firmware update we don't know wether it will a direct
1080/24 from the disc until the firmware is updated and people test the players?

I'm not sure if there has been a definitive statement from Tosh on how 1080p/24 will be achieved. It also doesn't mean that because a manufacturer claims the image is "direct from disc" that it will be free from problems. There are reports of motion issues with Blu-ray playback on Pioneer LX70 using "direct" 1080p/24 mode .



AVI
 
If they both output 1080p/24 from the disc will picture quality between the two players purely on HD-DVD 1080p/24 be identical?

No because even if it doesn't convert to 1080i first there are stills steps in the process such as colour space conversion.
 
Here's a funny thing. I hired Mission Impossible 3 and could see the moire issues reported about this player on my Panasonic plasma BUT a mate of mine also hired the same film on Blu Ray and he could also see the same issues on his Sony X Series LCD. I haven't got a clue about this sort of thing but could this mean that the issue actually lies with the film! Either way, if that's the scale of the problem then I can't say I'm too bothered about it.
 
Here's a funny thing. I hired Mission Impossible 3 and could see the moire issues reported about this player on my Panasonic plasma BUT a mate of mine also hired the same film on Blu Ray and he could also see the same issues on his Sony X Series LCD. I haven't got a clue about this sort of thing but could this mean that the issue actually lies with the film! Either way, if that's the scale of the problem then I can't say I'm too bothered about it.

The moire is not in the source. :)

Here are some images with and without the moire effect.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/printthread.php?t=832465

It's down to video processing performance rather than a HD DVD v Blu-ray issue.

AVI
 
I read the whole thread and am even more confused now! Some people are suggesting there is a problem with the movie and others say it's the player. I think I'll just have to shut my eyes when this scene palys in the future!!! :eek:
 
I read the whole thread and am even more confused now! Some people are suggesting there is a problem with the movie and others say it's the player. I think I'll just have to shut my eyes when this scene palys in the future!!! :eek:

I've just watched this movie on HD DVD from my old Tosh A1. No moire artefacts on the scene that is shown in the photo's.

The Vatican Wall scene is a difficult scene and many displays fail to produce the image without moire. This leads people to think it's the source but it isn't.

AVI
 
Avi

I promise to drop this after this :) but is it possible that there could be an issue with the film in that moire appears on different players on smaller screens but that some players are handling it when connected to larger, real home cinema, screens? For example, the EP10 connected to a projector might still show the issue but it may not be visible via the PS3 (despite the fact it did show the problem on a 40" LCD)?
 
Avi

I promise to drop this after this :) but is it possible that there could be an issue with the film in that moire appears on different players on smaller screens but that some players are handling it when connected to larger, real home cinema, screens? For example, the EP10 connected to a projector might still show the issue but it may not be visible via the PS3 (despite the fact it did show the problem on a 40" LCD)?

Grumpykev

I don't think so. :)

The EP10 and XE1 derive 1080p/60 output by first deinteralcing their own 1080i/60 signal. That's the same as sending a 1080i/60 signal to the display and allowing it to deinterlace. The problem is many displays/players have relatively poor video processing i.e. deinterlacing, scaling etc and even the goods ones can have problems. This means they can be caught out when deinteralcing 1080i material. Not all displays use the same method to deinterlace and the resulting PQ varies.

The PS3 does not appear to use the same internal 1080i>1080p process and the result is no deinterlacing stage is required. However, if the display has poor video processing or needs to scale this signal to another resolution this way also cause the moire artefacts.

It's all about video processing with regard to the moire on that particular scene.

AVI
 
Is it not possible that the initial problems with the A-20/EP10 were cured by the first firmware update?

I've updated mine and do not have any problems with 1080P now, even during the scene mentioned
 
Is it not possible that the initial problems with the A-20/EP10 were cured by the first firmware update?

I've updated mine and do not have any problems with 1080P now, even during the scene mentioned

Maybe Grumpykev can confrim FW version of his machine as he is experiencing the issue. If it's not the latest maybe the latest FW update will resolve the problem and he can let us know.

AVI
 
Maybe Grumpykev can confrim FW version of his machine as he is experiencing the issue. If it's not the latest maybe the latest FW update will resolve the problem and he can let us know.

AVI

I'm running version 2.0
 
I'm running version 2.0

It's interesting that Geesus doesn't observe the moire in the above scene at 1080p from the EP10 but you do. I don't think either of your displays is native 1080 res so that may suggest the moire may be caused by your display scaling the input to its native res.

Maybe some other EP10 owners could chime in if they have MI3 HD DVD.

Geesus are you also running v2.0 ?

AVI
 
Errr the latest version AVI...I think that's 2.0

It is curious, and I do tend to have a good eye for these things, as I did review DVD's in the past, so kinda know what to look for.

Watched Blades of Glory in 1080P last night, and it really was quite stunning and a definite improvement over 1080i, with far deeper black levels. I will give a few more discs a whirl later, and test for shimmering etc, which did give me problems before the firmware update.
 

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