Detail DOES EXIST in SD so which flat screen to show it ?

Discussion in 'What Is The Best TV For You?' started by Merlin, Jun 14, 2018.

  1. Merlin

    Merlin
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    Hi,
    Only Wega users will know what I mean when I declare that SD HAS GOT DETAIL IN THE SIGNAL but only the Sony Wega can show it.
    Certainly my wega model. I would rate picture detail at 8/10 with Full HD TV fed true HD 10/10 and SD seen on a flat screen 4/10. I can come home part way through a movie or rewatch something seen on a friends flat screen and see detail of it on my WEGA where they had just a softness, be that a soft undetailed football pitch or somebodys face with all the skin details, fine hairs as a general airbrushed out area, and the outline sharp if not halo and oversharp. I have not yet seen SD on any flat screen as I get to see it WITH DETAIL on my WEGA.

    I need to consider sourcing a flat screen to replace it as the tube is starting to go. I get told the problems are the upscaling. 640 becomes 1920 so thats a x3 enlargement. Wega is 32inch, I could accomadate on its stand a 40inch, or mount on the wall a further 0.75mtr further away, a larger one. My WEGA to eye distance is 1.9m. Do not play SD on anything large as again best kept to 32inch.

    Thats shot down though as I am told 32 inch is bedroom size now and build quality not as high as 40 inch or higher so will fuzz up SD. Then I am told 40inch are all 4K now. SD would require 6 x to become 3840, if that doesnt make SD even worse I dont know what will. BUT HD also requires 2x so introduce 50% fictional pixels, not quite SD 3x but thats an alarming thought. I would not consider 200% resampling in photoshop on a photo so ...oh dear.

    I am told Samsung are good. Use their own technology. A Hitachi plasma did give detail a friend of mine said, cost him £1700 or more at the time, he sets up aerials etc and confirmed my observations on how bad flatties are with SD saying only at that far end of the market was SD considered in the design.

    I have a huge library of SD recordings and archival material and also most channels I view are still SD and I enjoy a choice of past TV, often better than present. SD channels I am told are to be required to convert everything to HD but may use compression and ruin it as sport and news and mainstream channels will get the lions share of space available.

    What of HD upscaled to 4K ? why buy 4K if there are no 4K channels and it means HD signal needs fictional pixels adding 2x, and I am viewing Gold and Yesterday etc etc.

    So what should I go and ask to view ? I will feed it broadcast SD, as well as dvd both purchased and my own camcorder footage.

    Merlin
     
  2. grahamlthompson

    grahamlthompson
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    Not sure what your post means. Putting it simply any modern TV has to match the number of pixels in the source to the display. if it did not any source with less pixels than the display would simply produce a smaller picture. eg a SD source of 720 x 576 will have to be rescaled to 1920 x 1080 to be displayed on a 1920 x 1080 display panel.

    There is no compression involved, that takes place at the broadcast source to maximise the capacity of a digital mux. The process of decoding the content attempts to remove the compression to create a stream of full frames.

    All scalers aren't created equal, the better ones make a better guess than the poorer ones when looking at adjacent pixels. Cheap TV's generally have poor scalers compared to high end sets.

    As to Photoshop some of the better scaling up options can do a pretty good job compared to a TV as they don't have to do it at the frame rate required to create a 24/25/59/60 fps video stream. Given a RAW image it can produce impressive results. Jpeg images are also lossy.

    Much more important is the efficiency of the encoding codec and the bitrate it is given. Digital video doesn't have have all the pixels for every frame. It has one full frame (I frame) plus subpixels with only difference info. The higher the bitrate the less info is discarded. A 720 x 576 image encoded in H265/EHVC using a high bitrate would scale up to full HD with more apparent detail than a broadcast mpeg2 source. Back in the days when some terrestrial transmitters were used as the upload source for SD TV to satellite and consequently had a higher bitrate (around 7 Mbps) the picture quality was superior to other areas when viewed on a Freeview TV. 7 Mbps is roughly the average bitrate for the main HD channels on Freeview.
     
  3. Dodgexander

    Dodgexander
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    Get a FHD model from Sony 43"/49" (wide viewing angles) or Samsung 40" 43" 49" 55"(higher contrast, narrow viewing angles). Sony do some high contrast VA panels on their 40" TVs too.

    These will do a better job than any UHD TV.

    Alternatively look at the second hand market for some last Plasma TVs or decent FHD LCDs from 2013-2015.

    I recently purchased a really old PX70 Panny Plasma and it smokes everything for PQ, including my 2013 FHD 1080p Plasma, in my opinion anyway.

    And yes, manufacturers like you to believe new TVs polish old sources, they certainly do not.
     
  4. Merlin

    Merlin
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    Graham.."Not sure what your post means."
    in a nutshell I need to find a flat screen TV that will not blur the fine detail that I enjoy viewing in SD on my Sony WEGA tv. I want suggestions on which tv model to ask to see. The technical details will be lost on the sales bod in the shop.

    Sony designed the WEGA to match the detail display of Full HD as best as possible, and my WEGA shows me the detail that exists in SD footage whilst a flatscreen will remove it, by blurring it. Why does it blur it and remove it , adding 2 pixels in for every real pixel to get 640 to become 1920 removes the pixels that had the detail it seems. So if a hair on a face is 1 pixel width rather than it become 3 pixels it gets nuked, blends into the other 2 new ones. 6x to get it to 4K, does SD suffer even more ?

    I need to know, does the same HD footage look better on a 1920 FullHD screen than on a 4K screen with the upscaling 2x that occurs. (its SD into HD all over again, the victim being HD as well as SD this time).

    We even set a quality flat screen up next to my Wega and mine gave detail on SD whilst the flatty blurred it. Many folk will not believe there is detail in an SD signal, that it is possible to see the fine weave in a grey jacket, or the individual hairs on a face, but it is, if you view SD on a Wega, so those with Grundigs and Bush and Philips CRT never saw SD with the detail I enjoy, they are not aware of having lost that quality viewing when having bought a flatscreen, I if not careful in my choice will lose that quality viewing I have enjoyed for decades.

    Dodgexander,
    thank you for the suggestions. I will go armed with that off to the shops now.
    The flatty we tried a few years ago might be in the 2013-15 era , it was either Panny or LG., need to ask the friend. Bit frightened there.

    New TVs are ruining the ability to view decades of great TV, let alone all the dvd's in my library and my camcorder footage filmed on the best camcorders money could buy.

    I am more than happy to see my image with margins and view it a bit smaller.

    IMPORTANT NOTE...on the Wega I have options for screen ratio, I can select 4:3 ratio or smart or wide or 16:9 when viewing 4:3 I select 4:3 if the auto size hasnt done so.

    I must have a flat screen that can display 4:3 as 4:3 shape with black margins, else stretching 4:3 to 16:9 and making circles become elipses, my beloved aircraft footage showing the most beautiful aircraft like a spitfire stretched stupidly and RAF roundels egg shaped, faces made wider, looking most odd, that is adding insult to injury, I will not accept that at all, distorting the images.

    Which TVs will give me 4:3 shape options with black margins ?

    Merlin
     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2018
  5. Dodgexander

    Dodgexander
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    It is slightly blurrier than on a native TV but its a lot less noticeable than viewing SD on a FHD TV or even SD on an UHD model. The latter of which I personally find awful. It also depends on how far away you view and your eyesight.

    Its highly subjective, I often laud on here the woes of scaling poorer quality sources on UHD TVs in general but many have disagreed with me (more agreed mind).

    Every TV should do this automatically when fed with a 4:3 source, every TV can do it manually too as far as I Know.

    If you demoed already your SD content on a LCD TV from 2013-2014 then likely it was a FHD one, not UHD (do you remember?). If its FHD then the FHD models I suggested today won't be any better unfortunately, still though they are a lot better than UHD models.

    Have you considered a second hand, last generation Plasma? If you can get one of those TVs they will probably be the best you can get now for displaying SD content.

    I'm no scientist or mathematician but my views on upscaling are drawn from real world scenarios, basically the more pixels that have to be made up in an image the worse it will look, the only real answer I guess would be to either use a professional, dedicated scaler like a lumagen pro (talking £££s here) to make SD look watchable on an UHD TV.

    Some people have said that picture processing in the Sony ZD9 is the best they have seen when it comes to watching SD on an UHD model but I'd still be sceptical that it beats a HD or FHD TV.

    But scaling is only one part of the picture and there are gains to be made elsewhere too with a new TV, especially an OLED if you can afford and fit one.
     
  6. Merlin

    Merlin
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    HD upscaled to 4K...It is slightly blurrier than on a native TV but its a lot less noticeable than viewing SD on a FHD TV or even SD on an UHD model. The latter of which I personally find awful. It also depends on how far away you view and your eyesight.

    so 4k, whats the use of it ? some TV is broadcast HD, a lot is SD, and now even HD quality will suffer a bit.
    If I get 4K (UHD) I wont get to see HD as was my hope, I certainly wont get to see SD and the detail it holds.

    Which TVs will give me 4:3 shape options with black margins ?

    Every TV should do this automatically when fed with a 4:3 source, every TV can do it manually too as far as I Know.


    Good.

    If you demoed already your SD content on a LCD TV from 2013-2014 then likely it was a FHD one, not UHD (do you remember?).

    It was FHD.

    If its FHD then the FHD models I suggested today won't be any better unfortunately, still though they are a lot better than UHD models.

    Oh dear, my big hope was that with time the designers had managed to get SD to display with detail and without the strange movements I had in footage of airshows where camouflage was moving independent of the cowlings as I slowly panned with my camcorder and instruments in a cockpit. So I cannot improve on what I saw, which was a mess. Would the instrument divisions in the bezels still be moving independent of them, looking at the footage the wartime camera was moving slightly, my WEGA had the white divisions and bezels as one, the Flatty had the white divisions moving, wobbling around in fact, separate to the surrounding bezels.

    I get the feeling now that flat screen is just crap at displaying SD with the detail that I enjoy viewing., and in fact getting even worse as if that was possible, as what I did see when last testing was awful anyway. I will go out and test though.

    Have you considered a second hand, last generation Plasma? If you can get one of those TVs they will probably be the best you can get now for displaying SD content.

    I found some talk about SD and LCD and plasma,...
    You don't need to worry about the image retention/screen burn problem which really is a pain with plasma.
    Plasma dont last long.
    CRT built to last 20 yrs Plasmas die young, very young. etc.


    Is this true of all plasmas or the earlier ones.

    Worried that if I get a second hand one what might I be getting ?

    Hope to test some now if I can feed them my test footage as I know how it looks on the Wega. The TV shops seem to have all closed down.

    Merlin
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2018
  7. Dodgexander

    Dodgexander
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    I'll try to address your points/questions.

    UHD TVs are designed with the very latest and best quality content in mind. If you were to use a TV for streaming services like Netflix and Amazon along with UHD Blu-Rays in particular this is where they shine. They are leaps and bounds ahead of the broadcasting industry that still only offer a few channels in HD. If you watch HD on an UHD model though it doesn't look so bad, not like SD anyway.

    In general this was my thought before I originally searched for a TV, I thought that new TVs would be able to polish the old with all their marvelous technology, unfortunately it's almost the opposite, watching content on an UHD TV brings out the worse in poorer quality content, not the best.

    What you describe with instrument movement does sound like motion artefacts though, possibly caused by motion processing. You want to make sure the TV can refresh at the same frame rate as your footage and also that it applies no motion interpolation that results in any obscurities in motion. Most TVs now are good with switching between different frame rates and can have these disabled. I am not sure if the model you demoed had any of these enabled or not or even how good it was with motion at all. Certainly one of the advantages of Plasma TVs is their ability to cope with motion a lot better, even by today's standards of OLEDs and high end LCDs that excel with motion, Plasma TVs are still superior in terms of blur and judder.

    I don't think this is really true for the later ones at all. I recently bought 8 year old Plasma for £50 from the classifieds here and it is great, its a 1024x768 resolution so "not quite" HD. Displays SD TV to a better quality by far compared to my UHD TV and also better than my FHD Plasma from 2013. Still though, I wouldn't recommend buying such an old TV, so I'd look at the last couple of generation models so for Panasonic that would be the ST/GT series. Pioneer also made some fantastic Plasma TVs, if you can find a later model of one of those then it will also be good. Burn in is indeed something you need to think about but unless you have repetitive viewing patterns it shouldn't be a worry.

    Testing even UHD models is hard now, let alone FHD. Some stores are better than others. Generally you have better luck in the AV specialist stores than you do the big names but even then they are reluctant to demo content on a TV you choose in their demo rooms.

    Its very hard to seek a good demo nowadays, sadly it results in many people buying and returning many a TV..so I'm not convinced its a great move from the shops.
     
  8. Merlin

    Merlin
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    Got some demos in.
    After I was first blown away by an 'organised usb stick or inbuilt demo', sweets in boxes, glass making etc on a unit nearby, I then homed in on the suggested unit, a SAMSUNG, noticed that the footie being played, my Wega does far better ! How can an old technology CRT TV fed SD make a better image than this UHD fed what must have been BBC 001 SD., apart from the fact that Sony created Wega to match HD as best as was possible. With its high price tag,... that I can better it with £60 of SD Wega struck me as most odd.

    Obviously if you buy 4K DONT FEED IT SD OF ANY KIND !

    But then we played my SD footage to it and it and I was shocked, it was appalling, far worse than I ever expected , this footage having been prior viewed on the WEGA. I rated it 2/10, FHD last time viewed scored 4/10, Wega 8/10 and HD to FHD screen 10/10. 4K to 4K screen demo footage 12/10 ! but seeing other footage on them faces are softish compared to clothing. 7/10 maybe 8 as certainly no better than WEGA.

    This was the Samsung 43inch 4k HDR SMART LED TV UE43NU7400 total absolute diabolical failure on SD.

    But then I am told we shouldnt be viewing SD anymore, those with Virgin Media and the SD channels delivered are in the wrong, as you say there are for folk into Netflix etc not Virgin Media timetable transmissions. Thats if Netflix also deliver all the channels Virgin do. As for ones library of DVD SD movies, and movies documentaries comedy and whatever takes your fancy on your independent HDD recorder and also on the V+ box, tough, destroy it all and go view it from Netflix if they stock it. Instead, rely on a company to like what you like. Pay for what you already have stashed away, but this time not be able to record it, Its called progress. I have footage that I have yet to see re-broadcast and its very special. Netflix wont even have thought of such subject matter.

    I then look at a Sony, KD43XF87XX its a bit better, 2 becomes 3 maybe 4 at best, Sony have best upscalers of all TVs I am told. It needs to double that quality rating to even get near the Wega. Failure again though a tad less so.

    Look at the only FHD a Panny 40inch SMART but not as smart as the sony. 40ES500 colours dull, and go off unless looking perpendicular to it, so mounted on a wall and looking up at it would not work.

    Sony OLED KD-65AF8 fashion show faces were soft. I was not impressed by what I saw, it was no better than a mix of HD and SD on a FHD. Wildebeests in tall grass no better than my Wega, some sharp stuff but some very soft stuff I could better.

    Consider then the OLED , but it made as bad a job of SD as the Samsung above, if not even worse !

    Seems folk are blinkered by the fact that its new thus must be better, I saw nothing different than my last visit when it was FHD, except for the NASA footage and similar that we wouldnt get to access if we bought it., just some were WOW ! To see a price tag of £3k and know my Wega could match what it was showing was not right.

    Total failure then on SD but also on signals the units were receiving and I was hoping to win through and be impressed.

    Also advised Plasmas dissipate heat, made the lounge too warm, felt like radiator at work, I dont want that at all. Thats the Plasmas out of the equation.

    Advised to get CRT as the technology is made for SD whilst LED is not suited to SD.

    Thus no chance of continuing to experience high detail in SD and also enjoy HD at last, let alone play photos and flight sims on my flat screen. Its just for those into Netflix etc and without a vast library of rare SD footage inc ones own camcorder footage.

    Dissapointed in the extreme, gutted in fact.

    Are there any I should go look at as maybe all is not lost ? Buying blind though is not an option.

    Merlin
     
  9. Dodgexander

    Dodgexander
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    When you look at the SD TV channels ,they haven't really changed in quality since 1998, in fact some better than others (1-5 tend to be better quality than the rest) so its no surprise TVs from this era or even before it are better at displaying SD.

    My suggestion would be to avoid the Panasonic FHD TVs and look at Sony and or Samsung.

    About viewing angles, this is almost certainly something that is going to be worse on any LCD, but if you need wide viewing angles you should look only at IPS panels.

    Sadly in the LCD world IPS panels = generally worse picture quality, yet VA type panels that have better overall picture quality make for narrow viewing angles. - To avoid that you are looking at a second hand plasma or OLED.

    Do you view the TV to the side merlin? If you notice bad viewing angles it will be horizontally probably, not vertically.

    Maybe it would be best for you to look at a Plasma TV like I recently bought like the older non FHD models. Less upscaling like with your CRT will equal better SD PQ.

    If you have the money to spend I really think the LG A7 OLED is going to be a step ahead of anything new to buy in terms of upscaling. Its an OLED but with FHD resolution rather than UHD. Sadly its only available from ebuyer.com though.
     
  10. zeppelino

    zeppelino
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    Broadcast TV is poor - FHD for the most part will be poorer than a blu Ray, for example. They generally settle for a slightly poorer quality but with a more stable transmission.

    I’ve got a 4K tv and avoid using SD of the widely available channels. Quality can even jump around throughout the day which is very distracting.

    You have manufacturers pushing an immature standard, while broadcasters in the main just keep on keeping on; BBC excepted, of course. It’s not 4K that’s immature, that’s just the resolution but it’s buddy HDR has gained traction well before it’s time - low end sets will just accept the signal.

    By and by, most 4K sets have similar upscaling - albeit its shocking relative to so called lower tech.
     
  11. rogs

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    That's a shame, because Plasmas upscale SD better than anything else I've seen ....
    I'm very reluctant to swap my Panasonic plasma - even though it's getting a bit old -and it does get a little bit warm!....(no where near as much as a CRT of course)
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2018

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