Depressing - What to upgrade to?

Discussion in 'Hi-Fi Stereo Systems & Separates' started by DeadEye, Feb 28, 2013.

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  1. DeadEye

    DeadEye
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    So I accidentally blew up my Pioneer receiver, I've got the latest top-model replacement the Pioneer LX86 which is now going back with HDMI problems..

    I used to be an Arcam man, I had a DIVA AVR300 when they first came out and to be fair it was a nice bit of kit.

    Arcam finally catch up with the rest of the world and bring out the AVR600 which is also plagued with problems.

    I understand the "MkII AVR600" has the 3D board included.

    Is the MkII a stable machine? What's this "popping" noise?

    I've got PMC Fb1+ and TB2+ all round, anyone else run the AVR600 with these if so would love honest opinion. I've read that the AVR600 is a bit "gutless".
     
  2. mooro1973

    mooro1973
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    Gutless? It's the most powerful and gripping integrated I've heard.
     
  3. larkone

    larkone
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    Be interested to know who thought the AVR600 was gutless. Compared to what?
     
  4. simplicity96

    simplicity96
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    Chuck Norris :laugh:
     
  5. DeadEye

    DeadEye
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    So any HDMI issues?

    Are any of you guys using a PJ and a TV?

    Any of you using very long HDMI cables? (13 meters)
     
  6. larkone

    larkone
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    I would ask on the HDMI cable forum about using HDMI cables of that length as you are pushing the limits at 13m. More an issue for the cable than the amp.
     
  7. KelvinS1965

    KelvinS1965
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    Perhaps separates, but as an integrated I can't imaging there being anything much more powerful. Anyway, unless you live in the Albert Hall it's probably still got plenty in hand for most UK living rooms.
     
  8. DeadEye

    DeadEye
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    Unfortunately, this isn't the case.

    My existing Pioneer receiver handles that distance fine - I watched 10-15 films before burying it in the wall to make sure.

    The latest model Pioneer can't do it.
     
  9. mikelj

    mikelj
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    When you are reaching the limits of HDMI this is exactly what can happen - one screen/source combination may work whereas a different one may not.

    Is there any way you could temporarily connect a source to your display using a shorter HDMI cable. This would help you determine whether it is indeed a fault with the receiver or not.
     
  10. Mark.Yudkin

    Mark.Yudkin
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    13m is pushing it, and when you're at the design limit I would strongly recommend using only certified, high speed HDMI cabling (details here).
     
  11. KelvinS1965

    KelvinS1965
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    Think you quoted the wrong post Mark. :)

    FWIW I'm using a 12 metre HDMI cable I bought 5 years ago: The first one I bought wouldn't work at 1080p so I bought a slightly dearer one that was rated as 1080p and it's worked fine ever since. I've even tested it with 1080/60p at 36 bit deepcolour (and more recently with side by side 3D) with no issues. I recently added a Darbee at the projector end so there is a further 2 metres of cable after the Darbee to the projector and still works fine.

    So as Mark says just get something that is certified to work as my one was.
     
  12. Avi

    Avi
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    It's worth remembering that certification is based on a specific length of cable. From memory the maximum length that is "certified" high speed is around 8m. Sometimes manufacturers offer longer cable lengths in the same model range but this is unlikely to be certified at that length (that doesn't mean it wont work). High speed cable is probably less likely to fail due to bandwidth than standard speed cable for a given length but no guarantees given HDMI results can vary depending on the combination of products and bandwidth.

    Belt and braces would be high speed larger gauge cable with active signal EQ at the sink end. Something like the Blue Jeans Cable BJC-Series 1 or similar may be worth investigation as this has performed well under independent long run tests and may avoid the use of active EQ.

    Avi
     
  13. Mark.Yudkin

    Mark.Yudkin
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    There are quite a few certified high speed 10m cables, and a small number of certified high speed 15m cables, such as this sensibly priced one.

    [Yes, I do seem to have got the wrong post in the "reply"]
     
  14. Avi

    Avi
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    Mark

    Is there a viewable certificate available for the cables you mention/link showing that they are certified to the length being advertised ?

    I couldn't see anything when I briefly scanned your link but it will look something like certificate below.

    Here's the reason I ask -

    " The HDMI Adopter Agreement specifies that compliance testing is required only for a manufacturer's first product in a product category. So if one is a manufacturer of cable, all that has to be done is to meet compliance testing, once, for a single batch of cable. After that, no external compliance testing is required by the HDMI Adopter Agreement. One can build, for example, a 3-foot long 24 AWG cable with PE dielectric and bare copper conductors, have compliance testing done on it, and then go on to build a cable of a completely different length and design--say, a 25-foot long polyolefin dielectric cable with 28 AWG tinned copper conductors--and do no compliance testing at all. The HDMI Licensing organization has taken steps toward changing this situation, and has inserted into the Compliance Testing Specification some language indicating that a cable cannot be deemed "compliant" and therefore eligible to bear the HDMI trademarks unless it's been shown compliant up to the length being sold. However, these provisions presently may not be enforceable because they arguably conflict with the Adopter Agreement; whether they are enforceable or not, unfortunately, they are routinely ignored."

    Avi
     

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    Last edited: Mar 4, 2013
  15. Mark.Yudkin

    Mark.Yudkin
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    Cable manufacturers typically just print the official logo shown on the HDMI Consumers Buying Guide page. The certificate, such as the one you show for Blue Jeans Cables, is an authorization to use the logo (trademark). The trademark itself is legally protected but as the Buying Guide points out, "counterfeits are occasionally spotted". In that sense, it's no different from buying a watch or fashion or white van loudspeakers.

    As to the publication of the certificate, it's as explained on the Blue Jeans web page where you found the ATC certificate you posted. Whereas Atlona publishes their ATC certificates (example), most of the Chinese-sourced rebranded cables don't have or don't want to publish these or draw attention to their not being OEMs.

    Connector certification is for a specific model, not a family - that is the first product rule (see HDMI Compliance Testing Policies and Procedures) does not apply to differing connectors in the same family. Your earlier statement is correct; the Blue Jeans cable quote (written at HDMI 1.3 launch with category 1 and 2 cable testing separation) is obsolete - the loophole it identifies has been resolved by later agreements and all cables bearing the newer logos (see earlier links) are covered. It's a pity that this page has not been revised in the meantime.
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2013
  16. Avi

    Avi
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    That's part of it but the performance category certification is provide by a HDMI ATC (authorised test centre) i.e. Silicon Image as was in this example to confirm a certain product and model has been tested to a certain HDMI standard i.e. CAT2 (high speed) usually at a certain length and meets the signal performance requirement as determined by HDMI Test Specification i.e.1.3b etc.

    This type of certification is required for an HDMI Adopter but the point is a cable that has undergone ATC certification and passes "high speed" is only applicable to length tested of less not any length above that i.e. 10m,15m, 20m. That's why it's important to see the ATC test certification and see if it's for a cable that was tested at the appropriate length not shorter especially if the cable is longer than around 8-9m.

    Or the ATC certification may highlight the cable is not certified at the length being advertised as high speed i.e. 15m, 20m etc.

    Out of curiosity what's the maximum length Atlona direct continue to offer the high speed certified ATF14032B/W cables i.e. is there a version greater than around 8-9m for the ATC certified model ? Atlona HDMI Cables

    Have the cables you linked in your OP and similar offered at 15m or 20m really been certified as high speed by an HDMI ATC or ..... ? That was my point especially when people are under the impression they have or plan to bury cables in walls etc. Caveat emptor especially as the companies selling HDMI cables may not be the manufacturer and are not bound by any HDMI licencing.

    Personally I wouldn't link to products as being certified high speed at 10m, 15m etc. It may be printed on the cable but......

    Avi
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2013
  17. Avi

    Avi
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    Here's a response from an HDMI Adopter with regard to the compliance testing policies and procedures introduced in Nov 2011 -

    "The changes you refer to did not really affect cables or passive devices, other than they changed the names of the certifications. Category 1 became ‘Standard Speed' and Category 2 became ‘High Speed'. Additional certifications were added for the optional Ethernet-over-HDMI feature.

    If you see an HDMI cable, passive or active, claiming to be high speed certified at a length longer than 30 feet, you should be very skeptical. Ask to see the actual certificate.

    It's important to understand the certification represents a base minimum performance you can expect from any cable, in general you should be able to get a signal at least twice as far as the certification would suggest. So it would be easy to claim that a cable ‘will work' at 1080P at 50 feet, but quite another thing to say that it is certified at that length."
     
  18. Mark.Yudkin

    Mark.Yudkin
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    My understanding of the HDMI papers is that any 1.3 or later certification will be for the tested lengths, the loophole of permitting shorter lengths to be certified, and then using this to certifiy longer cables that haven't been tested, having been plugged.

    Whilst I would definitley recommend caution when buying a long cable off eBay, whether the link I gave is in the same risk category is another question. In the meantime I am wondering if that site doesn't post certification logos for cables that aren't; I have since noticed at least a couple of cases which claim a certification the manufacturer doesn't. perhaps I should refrain from posting links to UK sources when I don't live in UK?

    The longest model in the Atlona AT14032W range of certified high speed cables with ethernet appears to be 9m.
     
  19. Avi

    Avi
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    Hi Mark

    I think advertised claims of "Officially Certified" is a very, very grey area but my understanding from discussion direct with an HDMI Adopter is that cable loopholes continue to be exploited irrespective of the Nov 2011 changes. Simple things like what happens to the x million cables produced and already in distribution/retail channel ?

    As with many things AV it's confusing and may be very little if anything beyond advertising giving us a false sense of what we think we are actually buying.

    The reason I mentioned Blue Jeans was one of their products was one of a few that performed well against at longer length based on official HDMI type test criteria in independent tests. In practice that doesn't mean those that failed won't work or those that do will given the dependency on the HDMI devices at their end.

    Long Cable Signal Test Comparison Against HDMI standard
     
  20. Mark.Yudkin

    Mark.Yudkin
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    It's a well known study, but it's also ca 4 years old and predates the market need for cables with full support for 3D and deep colour.

    BTW, the OP with his 13m in-wall cable and droputs seems to have dropped out himself.
     
  21. Avi

    Avi
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    I suspect part of the potential problem the OP faces is the use of a passive HDMI connector to terminate one cable and connect to another at a wall plate. This may be resolved with an active EQ device at the sink.

    Unfortunately I also use longer HDMI runs from rack to display devices and have come across problem cables that claim to be certified high speed. Have you encountered any issue with implementing HDMI runs greater than 10m ?

    It would be interesting to see similar assessment performed on current "high speed" cables at longer length compared to the "CAT2"cables in the Audio Holics test. If you have any current third part tests on longer runs that would be useful.
     

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