Denon X4700H pre-out configuration options?

John24ssj

Well-known Member
Hi everyone.

So I got a Denon X4700H which has pre-outs so I could connect up an external power amplifier. Now my question is what sort of configurations can I actually have?

For example I got 9 speakers at the moment. If for example I bought a 5 channel power amp could I just power the front 5 speakers (L C R and top height L+R) with a power amp and the leave the rear 4 for the receiver to power, or for example use the power amp for the floor level 5 speakers and then the receiver for the 4 height channels?

Looking at the menus it seems that pre-out config just turns off all the amps and needs to power all of the channels yourself?

As I missing something here?

Thanks.
 

Jase

Distinguished Member
You'd only use the Pre-Amp Mode if you wanted to power all your channels with power amps.

The Pre-Outs are always active so you can have various combinations of power amps running with the internal amps. Up to you which ones.

I use a power amp for the 7 main channels and leave my AVR to do the 4 heights.
 

John24ssj

Well-known Member
AHHHHHH I though that in the denon menu you had to have the pre logo shown for the speakers you wanted.

Also what's the whole thing about 1.4V output and anything above causing clipping?
 

rccarguy2

Well-known Member
AHHHHHH I though that in the denon menu you had to have the pre logo shown for the speakers you wanted.

Also what's the whole thing about 1.4V output and anything above causing clipping?

Only the Denon 8500 has individual pre amp mode.

In avr mode the Denon 4700 is stable to 1.4v
In AV pre amp mode it's around 1.8-2v.
 

John24ssj

Well-known Member
Only the Denon 8500 has individual pre amp mode.

In avr mode the Denon 4700 is stable to 1.4v
In AV pre amp mode it's around 1.8-2v.
I see. For normal UHD listening at -10dB MV would only being able to go up to 1.4V be an issue?
 

rccarguy2

Well-known Member
Hard to say depends on the poweramp gain and speaker sensitivity.
 

rccarguy2

Well-known Member
What amp did you buy?
 

Mr Wolf

Well-known Member
All PAs should list the dB gain in their specs. The most common power amp gain structure is 29dB which would take a 1.4V input signal all the way to 195W.

The issue is that, if the AVR has a 29dB internal gain structure, it only takes about 1.15V to drive the X4700's internal amps into clipping which would cause distortion to feedback into the signal but Gene at Audioholics says this is probably inaudible. This is why D&M came up with the pre-amp mode to physically disconnect the pre-amp section from the internal amps but, as said above, apart from the X8500 this is on an all or nothing basis.

At -10dB listening level though the pre-outs will be always be well under 0.5V so it won't be an issue for you.
 

John24ssj

Well-known Member
What amp did you buy?
Possibly BasX A-5175 Five Channel Power Amplifier


All PAs should list the dB gain in their specs. The most common power amp gain structure is 29dB which would take a 1.4V input signal all the way to 195W.

The issue is that, if the AVR has a 29dB internal gain structure, it only takes about 1.15V to drive the X4700's internal amps into clipping which would cause distortion to feedback into the signal but Gene at Audioholics says this is probably inaudible. This is why D&M came up with the pre-amp mode to physically disconnect the pre-amp section from the internal amps but, as said above, apart from the X8500 this is on an all or nothing basis.

At -10dB listening level though the pre-outs will be always be well under 0.5V so it won't be an issue for you.
I see :)

Now if the avr does not turn off the internal amps with the external amp plugged in, does that mean that external amp doesn't really help the avr to eleviate the load of powering the speakers?
 

Mr Wolf

Well-known Member
Now if the avr does not turn off the internal amps with the external amp plugged in, does that mean that external amp doesn't really help the avr to eleviate the load of powering the speakers?
No, not at all. The unused internal powers amps will just sit there idling, drawing a negligible amount of current from the PSU which therefore makes additional current (i.e. power) headroom available to the speakers that are connected to internal power amps. Extra power headroom is a nice thing to have and useful too if you actually need it.
 
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Dobbyisfree

Well-known Member
Don't forget John that for years they've had the option in the X4x00 series to set it in 11.1 channel mode. Then, it asks you if you want height 2 as pre out or the fronts. If you choose the fronts then it disconnects the front internal amps just for those two channels.

That's what Amir worked out on testing a year or so ago and got the better results (e.g. out of the x3600, which also has that function).

In your case, with amp assign as 11.1, you then just say 5.1 instead of 7.1 for the floor speakers. (I seem to remember that you have 5.2.4).
 

Mr Wolf

Well-known Member
That makes sense. Logically, if an AVR has 11 channel processing/pre-amps and only 9 internal power amps then two of those pre-amps cannot be connected to a power amp at any point, it’s just a question of which ones.
 

John24ssj

Well-known Member
Don't forget John that for years they've had the option in the X4x00 series to set it in 11.1 channel mode. Then, it asks you if you want height 2 as pre out or the fronts. If you choose the fronts then it disconnects the front internal amps just for those two channels.

That's what Amir worked out on testing a year or so ago and got the better results (e.g. out of the x3600, which also has that function).

In your case, with amp assign as 11.1, you then just say 5.1 instead of 7.1 for the floor speakers. (I seem to remember that you have 5.2.4).

That makes sense. Logically, if an AVR has 11 channel processing/pre-amps and only 9 internal power amps then two of those pre-amps cannot be connected to a power amp at any point, it’s just a question of which ones.

Thanks @Dobbyisfree that's a great hint :) It does seems like you can turn off the amps for the front two channels but keep the others on.
With the AVR-X4700 (and all of 2020 series Denon AVRs) you can only turn off the amp for the front channels, or all the channels.
So when in stereo mode listening to music, the AVR amps would be completely off and only pre-out working :)
 

rccarguy2

Well-known Member
Thanks @Dobbyisfree that's a great hint :) It does seems like you can turn off the amps for the front two channels but keep the others on.

So when in stereo mode listening to music, the AVR amps would be completely off and only pre-out working :)

No. The signal to them is disconnected, but they are still powered up, but idle.

It's like having a power amplifier , not connecting the RCA cables and then switch them on.
 

John24ssj

Well-known Member
No. The signal to them is disconnected, but they are still powered up, but idle.

It's like having a power amplifier , not connecting the RCA cables and then switch them on.
Seems like there is mixed messages about this. Some are saying that there are two configurations. Amp disconnect for the front 2 L+R or full amp disconnect for all the speakers. :S
 

rccarguy2

Well-known Member
Seems like there is mixed messages about this. Some are saying that there are two configurations. Amp disconnect for the front 2 L+R or full amp disconnect for all the speakers. :S

It's a disconnection of the signal, not disconnection of the power rails to the amplifiers.

Just buy a new av pre!
 

John24ssj

Well-known Member
It's a disconnection of the signal, not disconnection of the power rails to the amplifiers.

Just buy a new av pre!
Maybe in 5 years or so
 

Dobbyisfree

Well-known Member
Seems like there is mixed messages about this. Some are saying that there are two configurations. Amp disconnect for the front 2 L+R or full amp disconnect for all the speakers. :S

No mixed messages 🤣 I said above, the 11.1 channel configuration setting for some X4x00 Denons, the x3600 and x3700 (as well as some equivalent Marantzs and similar for some X6x00, albeit for 13.1 channel with some of them) disconnects internal amps for certain channels (with restricted choice). It leaves the internal amps powered up.

AVRs like the x8500 as an example and some older D&M products like AVR 4520, you have a custom setting and can choose which channels. Some of the Xx700 range, like your AVR, have also a "pre amplifier" assign mode that disconnects all the internal amps. In both of the examples in this paragraph, I am unsure of whether it switches off the internal amps. But I would guess that it probably doesn't.

However, this pre amp mode is a fascinating idea that they have introduced and (as I've said before) it would be interesting to compare performance in this mode to a dedicated AV processor. Whilst it seems a waste to buy an AVR then only use it as a pre amp, effectively you can view them as "budget processors" with the added bonus that if one of your power amps fails, you can reassign and use them as an AVR again!
 

ChinaskiPBC

Novice Member
Hi guys, Im hoping someone can let me know if the Denon AVR-X-4700H pre-amp outs sensitivity is compatible with my Rotel RMB-1095. I cannot find the info for the Denon anywhere in the specs on the website or manual pdf for pre-amp outs. Does anyone know what the output impedance/sensitivity is? I do know from my Rotel's manual that the Input Impedance/Sensitivity is 33 k Ohms/1.5 volt (unbalanced). Any help on this is appreciated, thanks
 

rccarguy2

Well-known Member
Hi guys, Im hoping someone can let me know if the Denon AVR-X-4700H pre-amp outs sensitivity is compatible with my Rotel RMB-1095. I cannot find the info for the Denon anywhere in the specs on the website or manual pdf for pre-amp outs. Does anyone know what the output impedance/sensitivity is? I do know from my Rotel's manual that the Input Impedance/Sensitivity is 33 k Ohms/1.5 volt (unbalanced). Any help on this is appreciated, thanks

You'll be fine
 

Mr Wolf

Well-known Member
Hi guys, Im hoping someone can let me know if the Denon AVR-X-4700H pre-amp outs sensitivity is compatible with my Rotel RMB-1095. I cannot find the info for the Denon anywhere in the specs on the website or manual pdf for pre-amp outs. Does anyone know what the output impedance/sensitivity is? I do know from my Rotel's manual that the Input Impedance/Sensitivity is 33 k Ohms/1.5 volt (unbalanced). Any help on this is appreciated, thanks
No issues here, just hook it up and go. That spec tells you the Rotel needs 1.5V pre-out voltage from the AVR to be able to drive it to its maximum possible power which is well within the Denon’s capability as it’s good for about 2 volts. As I said above, in practice, at normal listening levels up to say -10dB most AVR pre-outs will be staying well under 0.5V anyway.
 

ChinaskiPBC

Novice Member
No issues here, just hook it up and go. That spec tells you the Rotel needs 1.5V pre-out voltage from the AVR to be able to drive it to its maximum possible power which is well within the Denon’s capability as it’s good for about 2 volts. As I said above, in practice, at normal listening levels up to say -10dB most AVR pre-outs will be staying well under 0.5V anyway.
Terrific! Appreciate the help and explanation
 

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