Denon X2200w / Tannoy HTS 101 XP Audyssey Crossovers & Bass Management

Umar1st

Active Member
Hi All

I've recently been doing some reading into crossovers and bass management. Initially when I bought my system, all I did was run through the setup Audyssey, wiring in the mic and going through the setup.

Turned the switch from auto to always on with the sub, left it at phase 0, maxed out the crossover dial and left the bass volume dial on half and I thought with Audyssey it calibrated everything.

Looking more into it, I realized that the crossovers for my front speakers were set to 120hz, 200hz for the centre, 150hz for the surround

I then stumbled upon @dante01 thread about crossovers and bass management and other forums recommending all the speakers be set to 80hz.

What corrections should or could i apply?

Thanks in advance.
 

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gibbsy

Moderator
You should not reduce the crossovers on any speakers below that which Audyssey has detected. It's fine to rise them but that will usually come from having far larger speakers than you are running making 80hz achievable. The difference between your fronts sounds like a positional problem. It would be handy if you took a photograph of the centre's position and any furniture in front of it.

If @dante01 wants to help I'm sure he will.
 

goingoingong

Distinguished Member
Hi All

I've recently been doing some reading into crossovers and bass management. Initially when I bought my system, all I did was run through the setup Audyssey, wiring in the mic and going through the setup.

Turned the switch from auto to always on with the sub, left it at phase 0, maxed out the crossover dial and left the bass volume dial on half and I thought with Audyssey it calibrated everything.

Looking more into it, I realized that the crossovers for my front speakers were set to 120hz, 200hz for the centre, 150hz for the surround

I then stumbled upon @dante01 thread about crossovers and bass management and other forums recommending all the speakers be set to 80hz.

What corrections should or could i apply?

Thanks in advance.
The frequency response of your speakers is shown as (-6dB) 100Hz – 40kHz
They can't produce 80hz and the Audyssey set 120Hz for the front speakers seem as to be expected. What is surprising is the 200hz for the centre. I'd have expected that to be more in line with the fronts. But as @gibbsy notes that may be down to its location.
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
Hi All

I've recently been doing some reading into crossovers and bass management. Initially when I bought my system, all I did was run through the setup Audyssey, wiring in the mic and going through the setup.

Turned the switch from auto to always on with the sub, left it at phase 0, maxed out the crossover dial and left the bass volume dial on half and I thought with Audyssey it calibrated everything.

Looking more into it, I realized that the crossovers for my front speakers were set to 120hz, 200hz for the centre, 150hz for the surround

I then stumbled upon @dante01 thread about crossovers and bass management and other forums recommending all the speakers be set to 80hz.

What corrections should or could i apply?

Thanks in advance.



You'd be recommended to not set ctossovers lower or below where an auto calibration had measured the roll off of your speakers to be. If the calibration designated your speakers as being SMALL and set the crossovers at a certain setting, you shouldn't manually set those crossovers below those settings. You are free to set the crossover higher, but don't set them below where the receiver determined the speakers' roll offs to be.



I'd suggest you reduce the volume on the sub and rerun the calibration. You are currently outside the correction range of the receiver and the sub appears to have been set too high?


I've no explanation for the high crossover setting associated with the centre speaker? THis is excessively high though.
 

Umar1st

Active Member
Okay brilliant. I will not lower the crossovers. Point duly noted. Thank you guys.

@dante01 The volume for the sub was set at half, I will lower it a touch and re-run a calibration this evening and post the results.

Could you please elaborate what you mean by being outside the correction range of the reciever?

Sorry to be a pain.

Thanks for all your input guys, much appreciated.
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
The receiver can only adjust the levels +/- 12db. The subwoofers current level is -12db which is at the extremes of the receiver's adjustment range. You ideally want the subwoofer's level to be closer to 0 post the calibration.
 

goingoingong

Distinguished Member
The receiver can only adjust the levels +/- 12db. The subwoofers current level is -12db which is at the extremes of the receiver's adjustment range. You ideally want the subwoofer's level to be closer to 0 post the calibration.
Not with Audyssey in my experience.
I've dual subs so XT32 demands they both be set at 75db (and puts up a handy dB reading on the screen to assist this while you twiddle with the sub output dial). My Audyssey set sub levels are then -11.5. I had similar when using single subs too. In over 15+ years of doing various flavours of Audyssey setup I've never seen a sub level at or near 0.

Not just me either:
The ideal initial sub trim is -11.5, but -12 is too low because that is the lower limit. The further you can get the sub trim into the negative numbers, the more headroom you will have to run the sub "hot" without going over 0dB on the trim. Going over 0dB on the trim has proven problematic and can result in clipping of the subwoofer signal at higher MV (Master Volume) levels.
How to set subwoofer volume for Audyssey - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
 
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gibbsy

Moderator
Not with Audyssey in my experience.
I've dual subs so XT32 demands they be set at 75db (and puts up a handy dB reading on the screen to assist this while you twiddle with the sub output dial). My Audyssey set sub levels are then -11.5. I had similar when using single subs too.
My latest Audyssey run was a few weeks ago with the new X6500. Same on screen handy graphic to set the gain on the sub and Audyssey got it to -2dB. Boundary issues playing a part with higher readings perhaps.
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
Not with Audyssey in my experience.
I've dual subs so XT32 demands they both be set at 75db (and puts up a handy dB reading on the screen to assist this while you twiddle with the sub output dial). My Audyssey set sub levels are then -11.5. I had similar when using single subs too. In over 15+ years of doing various flavours of Audyssey setup I've never seen a sub level at or near 0.

Not just me either:
The ideal initial sub trim is -11.5, but -12 is too low because that is the lower limit. The further you can get the sub trim into the negative numbers, the more headroom you will have to run the sub "hot" without going over 0dB on the trim. Going over 0dB on the trim has proven problematic and can result in clipping of the subwoofer signal at higher MV (Master Volume) levels.
How to set subwoofer volume for Audyssey - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews


Regardless …


the image posted by Umar1st suggests that his subwoofer's volume is set too high:

2020-06-28 19.27.54.jpeg



His subwoofer's own volume is therefore set too high and needs reducing. He then needs to rerun the calibration and the subwoofer's resulting level needs to be closer to 0db.

No idea as to what you are actually disputing. Are you suggesting that the adjustment range isn't +/-12db?
 
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goingoingong

Distinguished Member
My latest Audyssey run was a few weeks ago with the new X6500. Same on screen handy graphic to set the gain on the sub and Audyssey got it to -2dB. Boundary issues playing a part with higher readings perhaps.
But wouldn't these higher reading also be there when setting the required dB?

Audyssey at the point of physical gain dial setting has in effect direct control of the gain (via its handy in room minion). So why, when it does the setup process, would it then set the levels so low rather than just turning down the gain control further and thus being able to set the levels higher? As it was, my last run a week ago did a re-chirp on the subs 3 times (increasing the loudness each time) which seems more to indicate the readings were too low "A 're-chirp' occurs when the data collected for a particular speaker did not have sufficient signal to noise ratio (SNR). The SNR could be low either because the ambient noise in the room is too high, or the signal level is too low." At that time ambient noise was low.

Did you use the app on that run?
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
Audyssey isn't actually responsible for the levels. Audyssey is a room EQ correction system and it isn't setting the levels. The leves, distances and bass management are all independent of Audyssey.

There's no requirement to set the levels to attain any response relative to Audyssey. Neither is there any benefit to setting the subwoofers level below or above 0db. All that needs to be done is to ensure the level isn't set to the extremes of the adjustment range because this could be an indication that the actual level being measured is beyond the receiver's ability to adjust it . This is all that need concern anyone relative to the sub's post calibration level. All you need to ensure is that the subwoofer's level on the AV receiver isn't set to its extremes and that the level is well within the receiver's possible adjustment range.

All that need be done is to level the sub relative to your other speakers.

If you want to get overly techie about things then you want to try attain a 0db level which means that the AV receiver isn't then imposing any noise upon that channel relative to the processing that such adjustments would introduce. This isn't a requirement though and you are very unlikely to ever experience any audible benefits from persueing this ideal. The main reason youd target 0db as being an ideal is because you are then assured that the actual level is well within the receiver's adjustment range and not because you'd experience any audible improvements.
 
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goingoingong

Distinguished Member
His subwoofer's own volume is therefore set too high and needs reducing. He then needs to rerun the calibration and the subwoofer's resulting level needs to be closer to 0db.

No idea as to what you are actually disputing. Are you suggesting that the adjustment range isn't +/-12db?
No, that it needs to be closer to 0 (which is why I put it on bold in my initial reply just as I have done above) without then saying which side of 0 to be at.
+2db or +5db is closer to 0 than -12dB but is not a good thing to try and achieve...
Being sufficently negative on the levels allows DEQ and any user desired changes in +trim levels.

Given the time needed to do an Audyssey calibration I'd think it helpful to be as clear as possible without any ambiguity as to what should be the desired levels after Audyssey has run.
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
Sorry, but says who exactly? No subwoofer manufacturer or indeed AV manufacturer appears to support your way of doing things. All that needs be done is that the resulting level post calibration not be set at the extremes of the adjustment range for the reasons I'vealready explained. That is it.


So you are saying he needs the level to be further away from 0db????? :confused:



All that @Umar1st needs to do is reduce the volume on the rear of his sub, rerun the calibration and then ensure that the resulting subwoofer level on the receiver is closer to 0db and not on the extremes of the +/-12db adjuxtment scale.
 
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goingoingong

Distinguished Member
Audyssey isn't actually responsible for the levels. Audyssey is a room EQ correction system and it isn't setting the levels. The leves, distances and bass management are all independent of Audyssey.
Didn't say it wasn't.
But the levels are set during Audyssey speaker configuration using the Audyssey mic. This can obviously be ignored and a SPL meter used instead for manual speaker setup. However the OP is using the Audyssey mic to have Audyssey auto set the levels during initial 1st position reading of an Audyssey speaker setup.
There's no requirement to set the levels to attain any response relative to Audyssey. Neither is there any benefit to setting the subwoofers level below or above 0db. All that needs to be done is to ensure the level isn't set to the extremes of the adjustment range because this could be an indication that the actual level being measured is beyond the receiver's ability to adjust it . This is all that need concern anyone relative to the sub's post calibration level. All you need to ensure is that the subwoofer's level on the AV receiver isn't set to its extremes and that the level is well within the receiver's possible adjustment range.

All that need be done is to level the sub relative to your other speakers.

If you want to get overly techie about things then you want to try attain a 0db level which means that the AV receiver isn't then imposing any noise upon that channel relative to the processing that such adjustments would introduce. This isn't a requirement though and you are very unlikely to ever experience any audible benefits from persueing this ideal. The main reason youd target 0db as being an ideal is because you are then assured that the actual level is well within the receiver's adjustment range and not because you'd experience any audible improvements.
It appears that at least a few dispute that. See below.
Sorry, but says who exactly? No subwoofer manufacturer or indeed AV manufacturer appears to support your way of doing things. All that needs be done is that the resulting level post calibration not be set at the extremes of the adjustment range for the reasons I'v ealready explained. That is it.
Avsforums for one...
Guide to Subwoofer Calibration and Bass Preferences
Typically, it is a good idea to raise the gain on the subwoofer high enough to achieve a trim level of about -10 or-11 during the initial level-matching process.
Guide to Subwoofer Calibration and Bass Preferences - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews

or

You may want to consider this comment from Ed Mullen, Director of Technology at renowned subwoofer manufacturer SVS:

"A general rule when level matching the subs and the speaker channels is to run the gain hotter at the subs and the AVR sub trim level cooler. That keeps the AVR sub signal clean and allows upward adjustability to run the sub hotter if needed."

In other words, if you prefer to raise the sub level above the 'Reference' level set after running Audyssey (i.e., run the subs 'hotter'), you should raise the sub gain control so that after running Audyssey, the sub level is set to a bigger minus value (eg. -9db). This will ensure that, after raising the sub volume using the AVR trim control to suit your 'Preference', the final sub trim level is still set to between +/-3.5db.

"Official" Audyssey thread Part II - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews

You however are advocating adjusting subwoofer trim levels to get a Audyssey levels result close to 0. You are giving diametrically opposed advice to these two guides.

While that could work OK it would leave very little, if any, adjustment headroom to the OP to run his sub any hotter and thus to resolve a common complaint re Audyssey that 'reference' is bass light.
 
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dante01

Distinguished Member
Makes no odds. The levels are set by the receiver and not Audyssey. Audyssey claim no responsibility for the levels, the distances or bass management.

Regardless., he still needs to reduce his subwoofer's volume, rerun the calibration and check that the resulting level is not on at the extremes of the adjustment scale. I'm suggesting this in order that the level he gets is within the adjustment range of the receiver and no longer on the peripheries or outside of that which can be adjusted. The closer he gets the 0db as a result then the closer he is to this ideal. At no point disd I suggest as you are inferring that he needs to hit 0db. Anywhere other than where he currently has the subwoofer level will be closer to 0db! Anywhere within the adjustment range other than the extremes of that range will be fine. I very much doubt that he'll go from one extreme to the other and then no longer be able to boost the level in accordance with his own personal preferences?

No idea as to why you feel any need to complicate this for him. Did you even notice the discrepancy with his setup when he posted the images?
 
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dante01

Distinguished Member
You may want to consider this comment from Ed Mullen, Director of Technology at renowned subwoofer manufacturer SVS:

"A general rule when level matching the subs and the speaker channels is to run the gain hotter at the subs and the AVR sub trim level cooler. That keeps the AVR sub signal clean and allows upward adjustability to run the sub hotter if needed."


Great, now go quote me the section posted to SVS's own site that suggests he shouldn't do as I suggested and needs to prat about trying to get the level to spot on 11.5 as you suggested?


  • Level matching the speaker channels and the subwoofer so they all play at the same relative volume, which results in a balanced sound field.



The reason he needs to adjust the sub's ow volume and rerun the calibration is because the sub's own volume is too high and the AV receiver cannot make the adjustements needed to level it relative to the other speakers. End of.
 

goingoingong

Distinguished Member
Makes no odds. The levels are set by the receiver and not Audyssey. Audyssey claim no responsibility for the levels, the distances or bass management.

Regardless., he still needs to reduce his subwoofer's volume, rerun the calibration and check that the resulting level is not on at the extremes of the adjustment scale. I'm suggesting this in order that the level he gets is within the adjustment range of the receiver and no longer on the peripheries or outside of that which can be adjusted. The closer he gets the 0db as a result then the closer he is to this ideal. At no point disd I suggest as you are inferring that he needs to hit 0db. Anywhere other than where he currently has the subwoofer level will be closer to 0db! Anywhere within the adjustment range other than the extremes of that range will be fine. I very much doubt that he'll go from one extreme to the other and then no longer be able to boost the level in accordance with his own personal preferences?
You just said it now. It was implict before, but now explicit.
'The closer he gets to 0 the closer he is to this ideal'. Logically then 0 is the ideal level to be at....

It is the closeness to 0 I am disputing as with Denon/Marantz and Audyssey zero is widely recommended not to be the level to aim for. See the previous links I gave for reasons.
Anywhere other than where he currently has the subwoofer level will be closer to 0db! Anywhere within the adjustment range other than the extremes of that range will be fine. I very much doubt that he'll go from one extreme to the other and then no longer be able to boost the level in accordance with his own personal preferences?
Anywhere also includes + levels. You didn't make clear initially that they should be avoided for subs and again still don't do so.
No idea as to why you feel any need to complicate this for him.
Nothing complicated about saying aim for anywhere below 0 as long as it is above -12 but don't go for 0 and definitely don't go positive. But lower is better.

While it is not the end of the world having to re-do an Audyssey setup because the advice you have been given will prevent you from making further changes you may wish to make (run subs hotter) why not do just the one setup which will put levels at a more user friendly end state which allows further changes to be made without having to redo the Audyssey setup measurements yet again.
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
I never said anything like what you've suggested I said. I'm not going to waste my time explaining something I never said and that no one else apart from you appears to have issue with.

Please stop posting to purposefully make something that is simple sound complicated.

And no, he doesn't have to ensure that the level is in the 0 to -12db range and it can be anywhere within the entire +/-12db adjustment scale.

All that is required in that the level not be at the extremes of the adjustment range post calibration! Anywhere other than - 12 or +12db on that scale will be closer to 0db than it was at - or + 12db. That isn't anything to do with AV receivers or calibrating them and is basic maths. What is your suggestion, set it to Wednesday or put it by next doors recycling bin? Set it anywhere within the adjustment range apart from + or - 12db and it will subsequently be closer to 0db than it was previously.
 
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goingoingong

Distinguished Member
The reason he needs to adjust the sub's ow volume and rerun the calibration is because the sub's own volume is too high and the AV receiver cannot make the adjustements needed to level it relative to the other speakers. End of.
I never disputed that, on this point both of us are in complete agreement.
However it is the 'to where' that is the issue under discussion.
Please stop posting to purposefully make something that is simple sound complicated.
It's slightly more complicated than you make out with your aim for 'anywhere' near 0 advice.
It's important also to bear in mind when using Audyssey to set levels, a sub gain setting should be used which avoids Audyssey setting positive levels for the sub.
And no, he doesn't have to ensure that the level is in the 0 to -12db range and it can be anywhere within the +/-112 scale the receiver has in association with the adjustment for the levels.

All that is required in that the level not be at the extremes of the adjustment range post calibration! Anywhere other than - 12 or +12db on that scale will be closer to 0db than it was at - or + 12db. That isn't anything to do with AV receivers or calibrating them and is basic maths. What is your suggestion, set it to Wednesday or put it by next doors recycling bin? Set it anywhere within the adjustment range apart from + or - 12db and it will subsequently be closer to 0db than it was previously.
On what basis are you insisting that it can be anywhere including + levels?
0db is not numberwang, perhaps you can quote from somewhere where adjusting sub gain control to try and get a post Audyssey setup positive (past 0db) sub level setting is recommended or a good idea. All I'm seeing is the likes of this quote :

It is recommended by a number of subwoofer experts, two of whom are quoted in the FAQ, that it is advisable to keep sub trims well in the negative range (below 0.0). That is particularly important as MV's approach, or exceed, -10. In Denon/Marantz units, that is 10dB below Reference (or 70 on the absolute scale) in your AVR master volume.

Both of those experts quoted in the FAQ, Ed Mullen of SVS, and Mark Seaton have, subsequent to the entries in the FAQ, recommended staying well in negative trim levels, period. To follow their advice, and to avoid the possibility of distortion, we would want to keep our trim levels in about the -5 range, or lower, at even moderate listening levels. Again, that is easy to do by simply raising the gain on the subwoofer(s).

Guide to Subwoofer Calibration and Bass Preferences - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews

I'd suggest reading these entire sections there II-C: Where And How To Add Bass and II-D: Master Volume Levels And Sub Boosts as to the reasons why levels in the negative range should be the desired post Audyssey calibration levels outcome on Denon and Marantz AVRs.
 
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Umar1st

Active Member
Wow guys..I didn’t mean to start any debates.
@dante01 sorry I was meant to post last night but got distracted.
I re-ran the calibration turning the volume dial on the sub from 12 o’clock to 10 o’clock and these are the results.

still puzzled as to why my centre speaker crossover is set to 200hz.
 

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dante01

Distinguished Member
The subwoofer's level is now okay.

Still at a loss as to why your center speakers crossover should be so high? The location it is placed could possible be resulting in the receiver measuring a much higher than what would ordinarilly be expected roll off for that speaker or there could be a fault with that speaker or even the AV receiver?
 

gibbsy

Moderator
Wow guys..I didn’t mean to start any debates.
@dante01 sorry I was meant to post last night but got distracted.
I re-ran the calibration turning the volume dial on the sub from 12 o’clock to 10 o’clock and these are the results.

still puzzled as to why my centre speaker crossover is set to 200hz.
I'm still concerned about the centre placement. Stick a photograph on.
 

Umar1st

Active Member
Excuse the wires. Does seem a little loose and it’s facing downwards a touch instead of how I originally placed it
 

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Umar1st

Active Member
@dante01

Did one last re run of Audyssey and these are the results. Someone managed to sort the crossover out for the centre speaker, don’t know how.

Thanks for all the input guys. Much appreciated.
 

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