Denon say "1.1 discs may not work on 1.0 players"

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Pecker

Distinguished Member
There's already a thread about Denon going dual-format at the DVD Players (High Definition), linking to an interview.

But this is such a bombshell that it needs its own thread.

http://www.listenup.com/content/partner_stores/denon/talmadge.aug.07.php




LU: Will that load the information to the disc's menu system?

JT: Most likely. I haven't seen it in true operation yet; once I get it, obviously, I'll know. But that's the premise. So you can have running pictures of the director, of the actors doing commentary or whatever other material the studio feels that they want to give you to make it a truly interactive experience. After that, it's standard Blu-ray. But there is a possibility — and this is maybe not so public knowledge — that when these discs come out that fit this new profile, they may not work properly with the Profile 1.0 players.

LU: Really?

JT: It’s a possibility, and that’s why we’re working very hard to make sure that our products will be okay with any previous discs and new discs.





That's not from some fanboy - that's from Jeff Talmadge Denon's Director of Product Development and Systems Integration.

Being the first company to announce a Profile 1.1 machine, they probasbly know more about this than anyone else on the planet.

Until a formal announcement is made retracting that statement, it is now impoosible for anyone to recommend any 1.0 Blu-ray Disc player without adding the caveat that some future discs may not work on it.

As some of us feared. It's not just a case of not being able to access the extras. You might not even be able to play the film.

I've avoided using the word 'obselete' in the past. But if this is true, then I'm afraid there's a possiblility that some of our machines are indeed to be effectively obsolete.

Steve W
 

Jeff

Distinguished Member
I think it says a lot that Denon were not prepared to release a 1.0 player even if it meant delaying at a critical time to meet sales forecasts. Good for them, they have my respect.
 

Nic Rhodes

Well-known Member
1.1 RR was not a 'complete' success and there are issues that need to be still resolved. I suspect this is what 'Denonman' was referring to. What we don't know is whether and how this can be resolved. 2.0 RR hasn't started and will be much more challenging to pull off.
 

MonkeySting

Novice Member
Perhaps a note of caution here. I haven't read all of the article, but the quoted piece may just be referring to the fact that the P1.1 features like PiP won't work properly on P1.0 players. It doesn't explicitly say that the *film* won't be playable, although I agree this sounds like a real possibility.

It's bad news either way. And just as we feared.
 

BadAss

Banned
So if Hairspray comes and and won't play on my BD-P1000 then I would expext Samsung to release a quick update to fix the problem. I don't see it as a major deal.

And no I'm not buying Hair spray to find out.:rotfl:
 

JamesL

Novice Member
All I can say to this is that if 1.1 discs do not work on my Sony Blu-ray player then I will expect a full refund. By small claims court if necessary.
 

Drongo

Well-known Member
Very interesting, thanks Steve.

What's worrying is the fact that even today's ‘problem' BD discs (Chicken Little, POTC etc) are relatively ‘Java lite' in comparison to what's to come.

I believe some of the upcoming Fox discs (The Fly and The Day After Tomorrow if memory serves and probably others) are going to be more Java intensive.

It's a worrying time to be a Blu-ray 1.1 standalone owner particularly if the machine cannot be firmware updated to 1.1...

I wonder if manufacturers and retailers are going to inform potential 1.0 standalone buyers of the potential problems? :confused:

On a related note, an upcoming BD title (Nature's Journey) has been delayed because of problems authoring the disc and ensuring player compatibility.

Richard Casey has a preference for BD which I suppose is understandable given that supposedly a BD encode is easier as regards getting the stuff onto the disc. Richard seems to be one of the few folk who are trying to get the best out of each format – fair play.

His BD discs use higher bit rates than their HD-DVD counterparts.

Here he talks about the difficulties in encoding the BD version:

"We pushed the envelope with our sophisticated BD-J Menus, 37Mbps Video Encodes, and DTS-HD Master Audio," said Casey. "This caused problems for both the Professional Authoring and Compilation Tools as well as Consumer BD Players. Firmware updates and fixes had to be implemented to bring the tools and the players up to spec. We pretty much tripped up every tool and player showing their flaws and weaknesses with this release."
http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/s...h/Natures_Journey_Blu-ray_Release_Delayed/951

Now I don't believe the difficulties are caused by any Java content, just the higher bit rate encodes.

It seems getting the ‘best' out of Blu-ray isn't that easy….
 

Pecker

Distinguished Member
So if Hairspray comes and and won't play on my BD-P1000 then I would expext Samsung to release a quick update to fix the problem. I don't see it as a major deal.
I think you've missed the gravity of the situation.

If they could fix an 'old' machine (from last year) like the BD-P1000 with a simple firmware uprade, do you seriously think that Denon couldn't produce a 1.0 machine that can handle 1.1 discs in late 2007, when they can work from scratch, and even use different hardware if necessary?

Steve W
 

Timbo21

Well-known Member
Thank God 2.0 isn't mandatory.
 

Drongo

Well-known Member
Thank God 2.0 isn't mandatory.

Actually I wish it was.

Both sides would then be offering the same thing to consumers.

None of this crazy profile faffing around.

You could play all the contents of every disc, whatever machine you owned!

You wouldn't be waiting an eternity for your Java laden disc to load.

There would be no compatibility issues to deal with, well at least in theory.

Of course if that had happened, we would probably still be waiting for the first BD standalone to launch.

So we can see exactly who is paying the price for Blu-ray getting to market when it did…
 
Sounds like a new spin on worries over BD50 not working on players from 12 months back.

These 1.1 titles are being extensively tested and manufactuers have firmware updates in the works.

It was always planned for specific 1.1 extras such as PIP to be non selectable on older players.
 

peterweg

Banned
Note that he says that they MIGHT not work, however he is going to be certain that the Denon WILL work because they will test it.

Basically he saying anything might happen, he doesn't know what... but buy Denon and it will. Thats a sales pitch not an unbiased warning.
 

gandley

Novice Member
Paidgeek already stated that profile 1.1 media must play on profile 1.0 players, but obviously you wont get the extra features that require the 1.1 function. A firmware update may be required in certain instances, but thats cool.

:rolleyes:
 

Avi

Distinguished Member
Paidgeek already stated that profile 1.1 media must play on profile 1.0 players, but obviously you wont get the extra features that require the 1.1 function. A firmware update may be required in certain instances, but thats cool.

:rolleyes:

Does that mean all titles irrespective of if they use BD-J will be quick to load ?

AVI
 

Jeff

Distinguished Member
Paidgeek already stated that profile 1.1 media must play on profile 1.0 players, but obviously you wont get the extra features that require the 1.1 function. A firmware update may be required in certain instances, but thats cool.

:rolleyes:

Who is going to pay for all the testing?
 

Drongo

Well-known Member
again who cares, as long as the end result is OK for the consumer.


Dustin, do you think it's ok for the consumer that his BD takes an age to load simply because there are features on the disc that he cannot use, because he has a 1.0 player?

Or do you think that it's ok for the consumer, when he goes round his friends house and sees a BD playing on his friends PS3, and he's knocked out by the interactive features on the disc and so buys a copy, only to find those features have vanished once loaded onto his 1.0 machine?

Do you think that it would be good for the consumer if he was told of his 1.0 machines limitations by the manufacturer and retailer before he buys it?

And if he wasn't, do you think the upset consumer should have some (legal perhaps?) come back on them?
 

12 promises

Active Member
Dustin, do you think it’s ok for the consumer that his BD takes an age to load simply because there are features on the disc that he cannot use, because he has a 1.0 player?

Or do you think that it’s ok for the consumer, when he goes round his friends house and sees a BD playing on his friends PS3, and he’s knocked by the interactive features on the disc and so buys a copy, only to find those features have vanished once loaded onto his 1.0 machine?

Do you think that it would be good for the consumer if he was told of his 1.0 machines limitations by the manufacturer and retailer before he buys it?

And if he wasn’t, do you think the upset consumer should have some (legal perhaps?) come back on them?
there will be no legal point under the trading standards/consumer protection acts which a consumer could bring.
the machines will do what they claim to do and not what the consumer would like them to do.

this is not an xbox 360 scenario where the machine could not do what was claimed it could.........that being "durable".
 

Drongo

Well-known Member
there will be no legal point under the trading standards/consumer protection acts which a consumer could bring.
the machines will do what they claim to do and not what the consumer would like them to do.

I’m sure you’re right. But this seems like something of a nebulous area for the consumer.

If for example he asks the sales person “My friend has a Blu-ray player and the picture is fantastic. Will that player over there (he says pointing toward a BD machine on sale) play Blu-ray discs ok?”

The salesman says “Yes”

But he takes his new BD player home, and finds that he cannot access the interactive stuff on his new BD’s at all.

Has he bought a machine that “plays the discs ok?”

Should he be expected to delve through the technical small print first?

Or would it more sensible for him just not to buy anything unless he has been assured (preferably in writing) by the vendor that everything will work?
 

gandley

Novice Member
My A1 takes an age to load, i guess that was bad for consumers as well. but that was pretty much galzed over when it was a hd-dvd problem.

As for the rest, i have no problems at all, seems to be the HD-DVD fans who have 'issues' with BD mostly and look to find some way its anti consumer rubish.

I will tell you this though, If the discs start not play, then rightly all hell should break loose and as a profile 1.0 player owner, i will be the first to throw a fit if i cant watch any profile 1.1 enabled disc, because that would truly be anti consumer and i would give the BDA hell for that.
 

Drongo

Well-known Member
Dustin, there is a world of difference between something taking time to load and not being able to play something that is on the disc……

But with the combination of java intensive discs and some profile 1.0 players, Blu-ray has caught up with HD-DVD’s slow loading after a year and a half. :D

But the scenario’s I’ve described above are not geeky format bashing one’s, they’re real world issues that your average consumer has to deal with in choosing a BD player.

How these issues can be a good thing is beyond me. :confused:

I just wish someone from the BDA would have the honesty to admit, “We developed 1.1 late in the day, because HD-DVD had it and we didn’t. We could have waited and sorted it out, but we were too scared HD-DVD had a head start, so we rushed out incomplete machines early…”

As to your last point, I agree whole-heartedly ! :)
 

Pecker

Distinguished Member
there will be no legal point under the trading standards/consumer protection acts which a consumer could bring.
the machines will do what they claim to do and not what the consumer would like them to do.
A product should be able to do the job for which it's sold.

That's the law.

If you buy a disc and it won't play, you're entitled to your money back.

Steve W
 
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