Denon/Marantz oficially anounce upgrade program for the AVCX8500 and the AV8805

alebonau

Well-known Member
How on earth is a single hdmi 2.1 input/output worth that much
actually its not just one single input output, its actually all inputs see below as per flat panel HD chart see below - that will support the hdmi 2.1 feature set including HDR10+ Dynamic HDR, VRR, ALLM, QMS, QFT. there is upscaling and also hdcp support also to all inputs

its only ONE input that will support 8k... for many folk even one 8k source will be enough... i for one cant see need for 8k in my system... but the hdmi 2.1 features are good to have support for across all inputs...

1622287247836.png
 

gambit6

Active Member
actually its not just one single input output, its actually all inputs see below as per flat panel HD chart see below - that will support the hdmi 2.1 feature set including HDR10+ Dynamic HDR, VRR, ALLM, QMS, QFT. there is upscaling and also hdcp support also to all inputs

its only ONE input that will support 8k... for many folk even one 8k source will be enough... i for one cant see need for 8k in my system... but the hdmi 2.1 features are good to have support for across all inputs...

View attachment 1519935

That one 8K input is also the only one that supports 4K/120. It's the latter that is important for some gamers
 

alebonau

Well-known Member
That one 8K input is also the only one that supports 4K/120. It's the latter that is important for some gamers

i was clarifying the above statement re hdmi 2.1 with the flat panel hd chart.

re one, it would be more than enough for me... and unlikely something i will be even thinking of utilising for a long long time... theres nothing projector wise that needs it... if i were getting a telly to support 4k 120... which again unlikely, i could just hook up more than one source direct to it ... if ever needed . we have earc which would utilise to port fulll bandwidth audio back to marantz which i can do now anyways without even a hdmi 2.1 port to be seen on it :)

if a true (hardcore) gamers being referenced... they dont apparently use AVRs in any case ... usually a pc and headset based rig instead, so doubt be them with a huge call for this, but folks have the choice to choose as they will if indeed there is the need.

the current hdmi upgrade is a small price for those with marantz to get the capability if they need ...rather than spending 1000s on a whole new processor.. others who feel otherwise can indeed do otherwise as is their wish :)
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
Hi Dante01!

As you mentioned the Denon AVC-A110 here, I just wondered if this had quietly been upgraded to the latest specification too? The 3x screenshots from the Denon UK website all show "New" at the top. It's obvious that the Denon AVC-X8500HA and the AVC-X8500H HDMI 8K Upgrade are both brand new but is the AVC-A110 also brand new or is the "New" at the top a bit of a misnomer because it was announced on 8th September 2020 which is coming up to 9 months ago. Perhaps there's an AVC-A110A in the pipeline if it hasn't been quietly brought up to the latest HDMI spec?

Thank you.
If Sound United have started replacing the old chipset with a newer one onboard their products at the manufacturering stage then they are not telling anyone about it. There have however been several retailers indicating to potential customers that Denon are intending to incorporate the external adaptor into the products. I'm confused as to why they'd incorporate the adaptor as opposed to replacing the faulty HDMI chipset? The only way to tell whether or not the model someone buys has such an adaption or whether the model would need an external adaptor is to fill in the requiest form and await a response from Denon. I'd suggest the same is true relative to the A110 model, but it should be possible for Denon to implement the revised HDMI board into these models at the manufactureing stage. Wherher they do this is not something Sound United have discussed or implied that they will be doing.

Denon jave not said or indicated that they will be either fitting the A110 with the new chipset at the factory or that they will be offering existing owners the option of a board replacement. THe latter is less likely though, but I'd suggest the former may come to fruition?
 
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Jay53

Active Member
actually its not just one single input output, its actually all inputs see below as per flat panel HD chart see below - that will support the hdmi 2.1 feature set including HDR10+ Dynamic HDR, VRR, ALLM, QMS, QFT. there is upscaling and also hdcp support also to all inputs

its only ONE input that will support 8k... for many folk even one 8k source will be enough... i for one cant see need for 8k in my system... but the hdmi 2.1 features are good to have support for across all inputs...

View attachment 1519935

Maybe I should have clarified my original statement

Yes, they are changing the other ports but the majority of those features are already present on other devices that just have hdmi 2.0b ports. All that's happened ia they were officially included at hdmi 2.1 and so they are touting them as hdmi 2.1 features.

So I would suggest it's just marketing fluff as far as I can see all they have done is enabled the other ports to support those features. They still appear to be hdmi 2.0b ports as they don't support 4k/120 so are unlikely to be FRL enabled.

As to plugging multiple 4k/120 devices into TVs, LG have reduce to two 40Gbs ports on the latest as there are four 48Gbs ports on the 2019 OLED range. However wiith the exception of the top of the range 4k Samsung TV the rest of the range has a single 40Gbs port which is what you plug the AVR into so you can use the single 40Gbs hdmi 2.1 port on the AVR.

Even with multiple hdmi 2.1 ports on a TV, practically everyone of the TVs won't pass through DTS over eARC.

It's not just about 4k/120 either as it's any device that can output 4k/60 10bit RGB which is not supported at hdmi 2.0b and is subtly avoided by listing current support as 4k/60 TDMS up to 18Gbs.

Now to give them the benefit of the doubt the other ports might be 24Gbs rather than 40Gbs but if they were surely they would have said these could also support 4k/120 10bit but at a reduced 4:2:0 yuv.
 
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alebonau

Well-known Member
Maybe I should have clarified my original statement

Yes, they are changing the other ports but the majority of those features are already present on other devices that just have hdmi 2.0b ports. All that's happened ia they were officially included at hdmi 2.1 and so they are touting them as hdmi 2.1 features.
hi jay, hdmi 2.0b is pretty limited, and I dont think this is true at all... look at the flat panel HD table, the av8805 only has ALLM set as is now...

with the hdmi 2.1 board and A upgrade it gets per flat panel HD chart for all inputs it will then support the hdmi 2.1 feature set including HDR10+ Dynamic HDR, VRR, ALLM, QMS, QFT. there is upscaling and also hdcp support also to all inputs

1622294272848.png


So I would suggest it's just marketing fluff as far as I can see all they have done is enabled the other ports to support those features. They still appear to be hdmi 2.0b ports as they don't support 4k/120 so are unlikely to be FRL enabled.

appreciate that is your view, but I dont see it as marketing fluff sorry, as per the flatpanelHD table above it is all quite plain to see :)

As to plugging multiple 4k/120 devices into TVs LG have multiple ports but with the exception of the top of the range 4k Samsung TV the rest of the range has a single port which is what you plug the AVR into so you can use the single 4k/120 hdmi 2.1 port on the AVR.

thats just sammy being slow on the uptake isnt it ? just give them time...they will catch up with LG... but reality is even projectors dont support hdmi 2.1 anything much at all to speak off. and there is 4k 120 even of providing anything of benefit...there are HUGE questions marks on this with gaming ... still

It's not just about 4k/120 either as it's any device that can output 4k/60 10bit RGB which is not supported at hdmi 2.0b and is subtly avoided by listing current support as 4k/60 TDMS up to 18Gbs.
sorry i dont as such seen any need for this from a consumer perspective but totally understand if want to do so pc wise but then likely folk be using this in pc based setups ....

am looking forward to the acoustic frontiers updating their hdmi 101 for hdmi 2.1 will probably help a lot with regards whats of benefit and not... gaming is a mine field but there isnt anything hdmi 2.1 is going to support 4k uhd wise at this point that can see :)
 

alebonau

Well-known Member
If Sound United have started replacing the old chipset with a newer one onboard their products at the manufacturering stage then they are not telling anyone about it. There have however been several retailers indicating to potential customers that Denon are intending to incorporate the external adaptor into the products. I'm confused as to why they'd incorporate the adaptor as opposed to replacing the faulty HDMI chipset? The only way to tell whether or not the model someone buys has such an adaption or whether the model would need an external adaptor is to fill in the requiest form and await a response from Denon. I'd suggest the same is true relative to the A110 model, but it should be possible for Denon to implement the revised HDMI board into these models at the manufactureing stage. Wherher they do this is not something Sound United have discussed or implied that they will be doing.

Denon jave not said or indicated that they will be either fitting the A110 with the new chipset at the factory or that they will be offering existing owners the option of a board replacement. THe latter is less likely though, but I'd suggest the former may come to fruition?
wont the A110 just get the new board like the 8500A ? the A110 is basically the 8500 with upspec components isnt it ? am i missing something ?
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
You'd get 8K/60Hz upscaling and pass-through, 4K/120Hz pass-through, HDR10+, Dynamic HDR as well as other HDMI 2.1 features such as Variable Refresh Rate (VRR). Auto Low Latency Mode (ALLM) and Quick Frame Transport (QFT). You'd also get Quick Media Switching (QMS), a feature enables a source to instantly switch frame rates and eliminate screen blackout. AS well as HDCP 2.3.

All the HDMI inputs andfnot just the 8K input would benefit from all the other features apart from the ability to convey 8k/60Hz and 4K/120Hz video.

Out of the above, only ALLM and HDCP 2.3 are elements that were introduced with previous HDMI version 2.0b generation models.

There's also eARC which is technivally an HDMI version 2.1 feature, but this was already available to the X8500 and the AV8805 in their unupgraded state.
 
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dante01

Distinguished Member
wont the A110 just get the new board like the 8500A ? the A110 is basically the 8500 with upspec components isnt it ? am i missing something ?



Denon have made no announcement relating to this so as it stands right now, no. I'd suggest they will start fitting the new chipsets at the manufacturering stage at some point though, but they haven't made any announcements about this now. I'd suggest they'd not want to in order to prevent such an announcement effecting the sales of existing stocks still on the shelves of retailers?


My accessment is my guess and is not to be confused with whatever Sound UNited actually do or intend doing!
 

Jay53

Active Member
hi jay, hdmi 2.0b is pretty limited, and I dont think this is true at all... look at the flat panel HD table, the av8805 only has ALLM set as is now...

with the hdmi 2.1 board and A upgrade it gets per flat panel HD chart for all inputs it will then support the hdmi 2.1 feature set including HDR10+ Dynamic HDR, VRR, ALLM, QMS, QFT. there is upscaling and also hdcp support also to all inputs

View attachment 1519969



appreciate that is your view, but I dont see it as marketing fluff sorry, as per the flatpanelHD table above it is all quite plain to see :)



thats just sammy being slow on the uptake isnt it ? just give them time...they will catch up with LG... but reality is even projectors dont support hdmi 2.1 anything much at all to speak off. and there is 4k 120 even of providing anything of benefit...there are HUGE questions marks on this with gaming ... still


sorry i dont as such seen any need for this from a consumer perspective but totally understand if want to do so pc wise but then likely folk be using this in pc based setups ....

am looking forward to the acoustic frontiers updating their hdmi 101 for hdmi 2.1 will probably help a lot with regards whats of benefit and not... gaming is a mine field but there isnt anything hdmi 2.1 is going to support 4k uhd wise at this point that can see :)

VRR, HDR10+, ALLM do not require hdmi 2.1 as my 2019 Sammy TV supports all of those on all four hdmi ports and none of them are officially hdmi 2.1.

That table from flatpanels is just showing what the avr is currently capable of not what is/isn't capable over hdmi 2.0b :)

No, it's not Sammy being slow, they are specifically excluding it from all except the top of the range model and have done so on their 2019, 2020 and now their Micro Led 2021 range. That's why so many of us are looking to AVRs to provide the multiple hdmi 2.1 inputs especially if going down the projector route as who wants to hook up multiple hdmi cables to a projector :)
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
Great, but no other AV receiver manufacturer has introduced VRR or HDR10+ to models predating HDMI version 2.1. You can argue yourself silly as to whether it can be implemented, but that will not get you that ability on older models without an HDMI 2.1 chipset. AS it stands, you'll not get in on a DEnon or Marantz model without HDMI version 2.1.

That's why so many of us are looking to AVRs to provide the multiple hdmi 2.1 inputs especially if going down the projector route as who wants to hook up multiple hdmi cables to a projector
You don't need multiple HDMI 8K compliant input in order to connect a PJ. You need 2 compliant outputs to connect both a TV and a PJ. Why does a PJ require more than one input?



Why haven't they included multiple inputs? Simple, it costs more money and they'd rather have that in their pocket than give you more imputs. Besides which, most of their intended customers don;t need more inputs so why spend their money to provide something that really isn't going to attract more customers and or increase sales?

HDMI version 2.1 isn't as important as many think it to be.
 
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alebonau

Well-known Member
Denon have made no announcement relating to this so as it stands right now, no. I'd suggest they will start fitting the new chipsets at the manufacturering stage at some point though, but they haven't made any announcements about this now. I'd suggest they'd not want to in order to prevent such an announcement effecting the sales of existing stocks still on the shelves of retailers?


My accessment is my guess and is not to be confused with whatever Sound UNited actually do or intend doing!
given they are virtually identical under the hood, I dont see why they wouldn't just fit the new board in these as well. that said A100 was very much a limited release so they are probably done with them for now...made a limited batch and such ...

IF i had a A110 and not sure anyone actually bought one :D I would just bend the arm of sound united locally to fit the board... :D
 

Jay53

Active Member
Great, but no other AV receiver manufacturer has introduced VRR or HDR10+ to models predating HDMI version 2.1. You can argue yourself silly as to whether it can be implemented, but that will not get you that ability on older models without an HDMI 2.1 chipset. AS it stands, you'll not get in on a DEnon or Marantz model without HDMI version 2.1.


You don't need multiple HDMI 8K compliant input in order to connect a PJ. You need 2 compliant outputs to connect both a TV and a PJ. Why does a PJ require more than one input?

I never said they had

As to connecting up a projector you got the wrong end of the stick

I was referring that with most TV Manufacturers only having one hdmi 2.1 port and projectors typically being hooked up as the video only output so don't have multiple inputs we are looking for AVRs to have multi hdmi 2.1 port capability i.e. acting as the source switch. This avr would then be connected to either a single hdmi 2.1 port TV or a projector not both. I was not even considering if you have both a TV and a projector where yes you would also need 2 hdmi 2.1 outputs on your AVR
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
I accept that there are some peoplw who may have more than one source that may benefit from utilising the 8K/60Hz input, but these are the minority. Sound United will have factored this into their reasoning for not including more than just one input. Adding more increasies the manufactureing cost. THis additional cost can only be requipped if they increase the price of the hardware they sell and by doing this tey drive those who don't need more than one inputor those who don;'t need any form of an 8K input away.


It isn't a matter of what is possible and it will have been a decision based upon monetary resoning. Every penny makes a difference when you are selling large numbers of something.


It is what it is and it ain't going to change until the next revision of the current models.


Even if they came to a conclusion that they'd made a mistake when deciding to only include one input, it isn't as though they can just order different chipsets on the fly, throw away the chipsets they bought and then just start churning out models with multiple inputs. The market for such chipsets simply doesn't work that way. Besides which, only having one input on their latrest models doesn''y appear to have effected their sales in the slightest?
 
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alebonau

Well-known Member
That table from flatpanels is just showing what the avr is currently capable of not what is/isn't capable over hdmi 2.0b :)
hdmi 2.0b was such a small blip on radar good luck even finding anything on the official hdmi.org site about much if anything about it ...

hdmi is a feature set. while companies might proud what ever it is a feature set.

sound united with denon and marantz are providing the feature set as outlined by the flat panel chart across ALL inputs on their A models that is quite clear, am not really sure what the confusion is and they also outline what is avaialbe over non A current models with 2.0b chipset. we can dance around the bush. but they are the facts take it or leave it :)

I was referring that with most TV Manufacturers only having one hdmi 2.1 port
settle... its such early days... we have only now in recent months a source or two pushing the limits of hdmi 2.1 for most folks even one device is a need...2 is a bit extreme.. as with avr companies are getting head around... and lets face it only denon/marantz/yamaha is even working through this as now... rest are just clearly in the all too hard for them basket :D

sammy will get to grips of this as LG has already.... will notice sony has only just popped out their a90J which hey has 2 x hdmi 2.1 ports

all just matter of time... give them time :)
 

Jay53

Active Member
Agreed.

In simple terms it's come down to if you have (or want to have some expansion capability) multiple hdmi 2.1 sources and can wait until autumn buy a yamaha. If not or want hdmi 2.1 avr now buy an Denon/marantz and get the adaptor box if your single source is an Xbox or rtx 30xx card :thumbsup:

Strange how given this is a cost thing Yamaha have managed to get 4 hdmi 2.1 ports on the v4a which costs alot less. It's a shame as I like choice and currently there's isn't :(
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
Strange how given this is a cost thing they have managed to get 4 hdmi 2.1 ports on the v4a which costs alot less.
But have they? Rumour is that the bandwidth associated with the chipset they've employed is far from 40Gbps never mind 48Gbps. The rumour is that the chipset is limited to just 24Gbps!

Whether they address this via their proposed board replacements is another matter?
 

Jay53

Active Member
But have they? Rumour is that the bandwidth associated with the chipset they've employed is far from 40Gbps never mind 48Gbps. The rumour is that the chipset is limited to just 24Gbps!

Whether they address this via their proposed board replacements is another matter?

Yes, that's why I put in the wait until autumn.

If they are currently 24Gbs that still enough to do up to 4k/120 12bit yuv 4:2:0 uncompressed.
 
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dante01

Distinguished Member
You'll never benefit from a 12 bit signal anyway. No TV has anything more than a 10bit panel and it is extremely unlikely that any manufacturer will think it worth the additional cost of manufacturing a 12 bit panel. The distinguiable difference to the viideo doesn't realistally substantiate the additional manufacturing costs.

This is why LG decided to cap their bandwidth at 40Gbps post the 9 series TVs and why most AV receiver manufacturers are doing likeswise with their implementation of HDMI version 2.1.

A 48Gbps rate is only required to handle uncompressed 12-bit 4K at 120Hz with RGB 4:4:4 chroma. As said, no TV has anything more than a 10 bit panel and it is very unlikely that any manufacturer will make anything more than a 10 bit panel. The costs involved are simply not worth the results which probably wont even be distinguishable.

Even if a game was potentially able to up its output to 12-bit, it’s highly debatable that you would see a visible difference given that all TVs are currently only 10-bit. And as we’ve seen, LG (along with, I suspect, other brands taking a similar not-quite-full-48Gbps-approach to HDMI 2.1 this year) can reasonably argue that it can make a more visible difference with the extra power it’s making available to its video processing systems by limiting the HDMI 2.1 bandwidth.



All-in-all, don't set an XBox to output 12bit RGB! It's pointless.
 
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Jay53

Active Member
You'll never benefit from a 12 bit signal anyway. No TV has anything more than a 10bit panel and it is extremely unlikely that any manufacturer will think it worth the additional cost of manufacturing a 12 bit panel. The distinguiable difference to the viideo doesn't realistally substantiate the additional manufacturing costs.

This is why LG decided to cap their bandwidth at 40Gbps post the 9 series TVs and why most AV receiver manufacturers are doing likeswise with their implementation of HDMI version 2.1.

A 48Gbps rate is only required to handle uncompressed 12-bit 4K at 120Hz with RGB 4:4:4 chroma. As said, no TV has anything more than a 10 bit panel and it is very unlikely that any manufacturer will make anything more than a 10 bit panel. The costs involved are simply not worth the results which probably wont even be distinguishable.





All-in-all, don't set an XBox to output 12bit RGB! It's pointless.


I originally put 4k/120 10bit yuv 4:2;0 as I thought someone would come back with no point with 12bit. But thought no, I'll put what the maximum 24Gbs can support and edited it. Guess I should have left it as 10bit :rotfl:

Hisense already have a 12bit panel TV

As to Xbox series X, I don't as mine is set to 8bit, allow 4k, allow HDR with auto HDR turned OFF.

That way 8bit content is displayed correctly and the Xbox automatically switches to 10bit HDR for content that is 10bit HDR.

Switching auto HDR option to ON only refers to 8bit content and instructs the Xbox to tone map to 10bit HDR. I prefer to leave the TV to map 8bit content to it's native 10bit panel and use the correct colour space than have the Xbox do a half hearted job of it
 
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If Sound United have started replacing the old chipset with a newer one onboard their products at the manufacturering stage then they are not telling anyone about it. There have however been several retailers indicating to potential customers that Denon are intending to incorporate the external adaptor into the products. I'm confused as to why they'd incorporate the adaptor as opposed to replacing the faulty HDMI chipset? The only way to tell whether or not the model someone buys has such an adaption or whether the model would need an external adaptor is to fill in the requiest form and await a response from Denon. I'd suggest the same is true relative to the A110 model, but it should be possible for Denon to implement the revised HDMI board into these models at the manufactureing stage. Wherher they do this is not something Sound United have discussed or implied that they will be doing.

Denon jave not said or indicated that they will be either fitting the A110 with the new chipset at the factory or that they will be offering existing owners the option of a board replacement. THe latter is less likely though, but I'd suggest the former may come to fruition?
Thank you for your wise words and for this useful information dante01. I will indeed contact Denon UK but from previous experience they hold their cards very close to their chests and sign off by stating "We will publish any updates regarding this on our official web site." What happened to the good old days when Roger Batchelor might have even responded to a query put to Denon UK.
 

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