Denon DVD A1 - comments

Discussion in 'Blu-ray & DVD Players & Recorders' started by Edgeyboy, Oct 8, 2002.

  1. Edgeyboy

    Edgeyboy
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    I raised this issue on the 9000/A1 forum and it appears it is a result of the different frame rates on Pal.

    I don't have Toy Story on R2, but will go and get a copy today to test for the chroma error.

    Regards.
     
  2. CarlB

    CarlB
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    zcaps57,

    Thanks for taking the time to tell us about your tests, your results are most heartening. I have not seen any issues with my player yet at all, but have only watched 2 films in full so far - R1 JasonX and R2 Battle Royale. I did not see any issues with either, including BR which played perfectly in PAL progressive as you mention.

    I should be really delighted, but the amount of posts has me so worried about the hot discs when they leave the machine. I'm just waiting for it to lock up! ;)

    For now, I am amazed at the player and can't wait for my first couple of DVD-A discs to arrive so I can check its other great feature. Once again zcaps57, thanks for posting your test results.

    PS. I agree about the US forums, perhaps if we could get enough people interested we may get Denon UK to have a look at our forums and provide a level of interaction as DenonJeff does in the US. Okay, wishful thinking maybe, but when you consider the bad publicity that flies around because of these issues it seems a sensible thing to be seen to be working with users to address the issue.
     
  3. Edgeyboy

    Edgeyboy
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    I'm not "worried" about it. I am interested because I'm deciding between the denon and the tag 32r and have both machines on loan at present.

    The issue is wether or not the denon produces the chroma bug on incorrectly, or video based, material.

    I will test this tonight with Toy Story.

    Out of interest, the Tag struggles with the railings on Titanic (R2) whereas the Denon copes fine.

    The Tag would appear to have the better picture however.

    Regards.
     
  4. markbuffyfan

    markbuffyfan
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    Denon jeff said in the AVS. i am only here because the powers that be wanted him to do it. No such luck in the euro region I have wrtitten and emailed denon several times and as yet they have not replied .You do get more luckm on the phone though !!!
     
  5. zcaps57

    zcaps57
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    Tom,

    I've seen Tag 32R couple of times. But I've never done A/B comparison with those Denons. The Tag I've seen is Mdiamatics version which I didn't like. The Tag you loaned from your dealer, is it Mediamatics or DVDO version ?

    I ask because until recently many, many TAG MacLaren DVD players utilized the all-in-one-DVD-player-on-a-chip IC from Mediamatics? This same IC is still used today on dozens of DVD players costing all the way down to U.S. $200 and less.

    The chip uses very basic simple temporal deinterlacing for progressive output, so it's progressive output was below quality to that of the DVDO and Faroudja deinterlacer chips found in so many players today.

    I suspect that progressive output was not as important in the European market as in other areas, however.

    Of course the latest TAG Maclaren's and the 9000 both use DVDO (I'm not sure if the new upgraded Tag uses Silicon Image SiL503 or SiL504) deinterlacing IC's, which product superb deinterlaced images.

    As an aside, the Mediamatics chip did provide unmatched scaling capabilities - horizontal and vertical at the pixel level. TAG refused to make use of this capability in their players when utilizing this chip. I took issue on this "lost opportunity in their players' design" with TAG's President through some personal correspondence.

    Recently, I've heard that the best ever tested in German Magazines (I've no idea which one.) has been the Proceed followed by Tag. Denon DVD-A1 is on part with Tag. And another member in AVS loaned Tag, and Denon 3800, and did A/Bs. He preferred the Denon for picture.

    Of course this doesn't mean the Tag is inferior at all. Let us know how you find them ? It'd be very interesting.
     
  6. Edgeyboy

    Edgeyboy
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    The Tag I have on loan is equipped with the PSM192 Progressive Scan board which uses the SIL504 chip.

    Using my Seleco 500 CRT, my comparisons can be summised as follows:

    The Tag has better depth in the picture, better colour and more detail. There aslo seems to be more resolution on offer.

    The Denon's picture is soft by comparison. It is immediately pleasing to the eye, but after 20 minutes or so this wears off and you are left wondering what you are missing, so to speak.

    The deinterlacing would appear to be better on the Denon. Titanic seemed to cause the Tag some problems on the scenes with railings and pans - stairstepping etc. the Denon sailed through these scenes.

    The transports of both players are fairly quick, with layer changes not generally noticeable. The Denon deals with menus etc more efficiently. The Tag, annoyingly, sometimes shows menus in 4:3 at the start of films, reverting to 16:9 afterwards.

    Testing both players using AVIA, the 200 TVL resolution pattern through the Tag shows the side effects of the extra A-D / D-A conversion by showing noise in two of the four circles. Wether or not this noise is visible on DVD Video is another matter however. The Denon is noise-free up to 6.75mhz.

    I have made no comparisons on CD sound quality as I have only used it in a cinema enviroment and am more interested in its' visual capabilities.

    Also, the Tag can deinterlace your other sources, though annoyingly can't accept another RGB input which is limiting for SKY etc.

    Which is the best ? I personally prefer the Tag's picture but there is a massive difference in cost. I would be happy with the Denon too. I guess the audio side of your setup would be the deciding factor as I would hazard a guess and say the Tag would win on the sound front.

    Regards.
     
  7. Edgeyboy

    Edgeyboy
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    I watched Toy Story Region 2 on the Denon and the chroma errror is far worse than on the Region 1 version of this film.
     
  8. zcaps57

    zcaps57
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    Tom,

    Thanks for sharing! :)
    I'm little confused after reading your post though.

    Ok.

    This is my confusing part. :D
    When the Tag shows noise in AVIA's resolution pattern due to the extra A-D/D-A conversion, how do you claim that "There aslo seems to be more resolution on offer." ??
    As I understand it, loss in resolution to a certain degree from going through extra A/D, D/A conversion is inevitable. So.. it should be other way around ?

    Also... could you be more specific on softness of Denons ?
    Because this is exactly what I thought as well.

    Well.. I've compared (very well) my HTPC(Radeon7500), and Denon DVD-A1.
    When I compared Denon A1's picture with my HTPC, I also initially noticed the softness in comparison. Though carefully comparing for quite awhile made me realise that none of fine details present in my HTPC are lost in Denon due to the softness.

    Furthuremore, I believe the Denon's softness is actually due to the noise-free picture like you said. (very good S/N Ratio.)
    IMHO, it is mostly possible that the tag 'looks' sharper than denon in comparison because the picture from the tag is slightly noisier than Denon

    Tom, because 1st part of the quote, and 2nd part of the quote do not seem to add up, and makes me confused, your clarification would be greatly appreciated.
    :D

    Again, thanks for sharing your valuable experience, and opinions !
     
  9. Edgeyboy

    Edgeyboy
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    Ok, let me try and explain better.

    The further "resolution" I describe in the Tag picture could also be referred to as more "detail".

    I only mention the AVIA chart to highlight the noise introduced by the extra A-D / D-A conversion on the Tag.

    It isn't a contradiction as I see it.

    The same amount of lines are resolved and visible on both players, so it is perfectly possible they have the same resolution. It is just that in the Tag case, there is noise between those lines.

    So, is the softer picture of the Denon the result of less noise or just the way the Denon engineers designed the picture to look?

    Personally, I think they designed it that way. The Denon's softness could also be described as smoothness. On an A-B comparison of the same film using a Denon 1SR as a video switcher, there are things that I can see in the Tag's image that are lost in the Denon's. Take the old ladies face in titanic for instance: More lines on it on the Tag. Compare Mission impossible II: The wooden floor in the flamenco dance sequence looks more crackled and worn.

    Does this help to clarify what I mean ?

    Regards.
     
  10. Edgeyboy

    Edgeyboy
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    Moderator,

    Could you move the comments about the DVDA1 into a seperate thread to the 3800 ?

    Thanks.
     
  11. Jase

    Jase
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    All done, but it looks a little odd as the board software only lets you read the first line of each post. Think I´ve got most of the A1 posts though.
     

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