Answered Denon AVR-X3500H - Would it make sense to bi-amp?

Enigma2k4

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Hi all,

Sadly, my trusty Onkyo NR-808 has died in the move over to the UK. However, I am fortunate in that it will be covered by my insurance. With that, I am currently looking at the Denon AVR-X3500H as it's replacement.

Previously, I used to bi-amp my mains off the Onkyo (my mains are the DLS R55 found here), but given that the Denon is 180w per channel at 6ohm:
1. Is it still necessary to bi-amp or would the power from the Denon be sufficient?
2. Am I buying more power then I need? Should I look at the X2500H instead?
3. Given that my budget is around £500, should I be looking at other options as well when doing my research?

Thanks all. :)
 
It makes more sense to use the back amplification to facilitate Atmos by powering the associated 2 Atmos enabled, ceiling or height speakers with those channels of amplification. THe benefits associated with passive bi-amping are marginal compared to the benefits associated with being able to portray Atmos and or DTS:X.

No, the Denon is not 180 watts driving 6ohm speakers. That rating only expresses what you'd get if only driving one channel in association with a signal that is 1 kHz in nature with 1% THD.

A more realistic appraisal is the 2 channel driven 8ohm, , 20 Hz - 20 kHz rating that rates the receiver as being able to output 105 watts with a THD of 0.08%. This is however just 2 channels driven and the wattage would be a lot lower if utilising more of the integral amplification modules onboard the receiver simultaneously.

THe receiver should be able to drive most speakers to reference without issue if used within a moderately sized room. THe sub would be handling the harder to amplify lower frequencies anyway as long as you set the speakers sizes to SMALL and redirect frequencies at and below 80Hz to it. THese are the frequencies that would lower the receivers headroom if it were dealing with them.

You can bi-amp, but the benefits of doing so will not outweigh what you'd gain by using the same amplification to drive Atmos speakers with. I'd only suggest you bi-amp speakers if you are positive that you'll never be able to accommodate either back speakers or Atmos speakers with a 7 channel AVR.

You may fond this article of onterest:
Bi-amping vs Bi-wiring: What's the Difference and is it Audible?


It is more the content relating to bi-amping as opposed to bi-wiring that is of interest.

Passive Bi-amping
Passive bi-amping utilizes the passive crossovers built into the speakers, with each amplifier channel reproducing a full range signal to drive separate high and low frequency networks. Relative to active bi-amping, the benefits of passive bi-amping are much less pronounced (you might hear the derogatory term of “fool’s bi-amping” applied). Nonetheless, splitting the high and low frequency networks does have some effect, as the amplifiers each now see a different load than one would under normal circumstances when individually driving the entire speaker. Generally speaking, the individual networks are designed such that “out of band” frequencies will have a very high impedance relative to the expected pass band of the driver(s), and consequently will demand significantly less actual power from the amplifier at those out of band frequencies.

Because of this split, there are a couple practical advantages. Potential output ability is increased as there is little power wasted reproducing those aforementioned “out of band” frequencies. As with active bi-amping, the possibility of tweeter burnout due to amplifier overload is also reduced. However, in terms of basic audible differences, there’s not much to write home about, and what improvements do exist could typically be gained by simply utilizing a single more powerful amplifier with similar or better performance metrics than the two smaller amplifiers.

Conclusion
So we leave off with the question is bi-wiring or bi-amping audibly better than a single cable or single amp connection? As we previously discussed bi-wiring audible benefits are usually negligible assuming you've already started out with a low gauge speaker cable to begin with. Bi-amping can offer an improvement in sonics, and dynamics depending on the equipment and implementation. However, when dealing with very top shelf amplification and loudspeaker components and crossovers, a single amp, passive speaker connection can still offer incredible fidelity often equaling or rivaling similar active alternatives.


A much better solution would be to use an external 2 channel amp to power the fronts with as opposed to bi-amping them. This is far more likely to yield improvements depending upon the external amp you use. You need an AVR with pre outs in order to be able to do this.


Also note that the X3500 is only marginally more powerful than the X2500. The power difference if neither nor nere there. The benefits associated with the X3500 are the higher grade variant of Audyssey MultEQ room correction, its inclusion of pre outs for all channels, its additional HDMI zone abilties as well as a slighly better video processor.


Whether an amp is powerful enough to drive speakers to acceptable levels is determined by a multitude of factors and not just the wattage the amp can output without distortion, The room's size, your distance from the speakers and the sensitivety of those speakers all play a part in determining what is required:
How to Match Speakers and Amps | The Master Switch

The issue that you are going to have to address is that associated with your speaker 4ohm impedance. This can cause lower tier less powerful AVR receivers issues due to the additional heat low impedance speakers result in. Many suggest that even Denon lower tier models fair well with low impedance loads though.

Impedance Explained
You don't need to be Einstein to get this right, but before buying a thing, you do need a vocabulary lesson. These are the key terms used in speaker and amp specs that are critical to your search for good synergy and great sound.

First up, Impedance. Impedance starts with I, just like important. Used in both amp and speaker spec sheets, impedance is a measure of the electrical resistance of your components. It's measured in ohms and is often represented with the symbol "Ω"—as in 8Ω. This is part of the equation in determining the synergy between your speakers and amp. Speakers typically carry ratings between 4 and 8 ohms. Amplifiers generally operate effectively in a specified range: say, 4 to 16 ohms. Check your specs, but when that's the case, connecting a speaker rated between 4 and 16 ohms will be OK.

But—and this is where it gets more interesting—you need to be aware that many amps output different wattages into different ohms. (We'll go into wattage in more detail below—for now, all you need to know is that it's a measure of power). For example, NAD’s ridiculously popular D3045 stereo integrated amplifier outputs a continuous 60 watts per channel into 8 ohms and 4 ohms, but its Dynamic Power (sometimes called Peak Power, which refers to when it's being pushed to its max) hits 80 watts into 8 ohms and 150 watts into 4 ohms.

Generally speaking, it's fine to connect higher impedance speakers to an amp; what you don't want to do is plug low impedance speakers, let's say 4 ohms, into an amp that specifies a minimum 8-ohm limit. To take some math work and guessing out of the equation, a lot of speaker and amp manufacturers are switching over to using "compatible with" ohm ratings, which makes things a lot easier.
 
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It's been completely covered by Dante in the above post. Bi-amping from the same receiver brings no benefits at all. It just dilutes the overall power available to all channels.
 
Hi all,

Sadly, my trusty Onkyo NR-808 has died in the move over to the UK. However, I am fortunate in that it will be covered by my insurance. With that, I am currently looking at the Denon AVR-X3500H as it's replacement.

Previously, I used to bi-amp my mains off the Onkyo (my mains are the DLS R55 found here), but given that the Denon is 180w per channel at 6ohm:
1. Is it still necessary to bi-amp or would the power from the Denon be sufficient?
2. Am I buying more power then I need? Should I look at the X2500H instead?
3. Given that my budget is around £500, should I be looking at other options as well when doing my research?

Thanks all. :)

I have one for sale here. It’s a bit of bargain if you are interested! :)
 
@dante01 . Wow! This is am amazing response. Thank you. It's well researched, well written and very conclusive. I really appreciate your effort here, if you were nearby, I'd be buying you a pint or 3 to say thanks :)

So in summary, bi-amping is unnecessary. That brings me back to the research phase. Should I be considering any other options that will compete with the Denon?

Sadly, at home I am only running with a 2.1 setup. I have the centre and surrounds, but as I am in a rented house, I am not planning on mounting the surrounds. Hence, this will remain as a 2.1 setup.
 
Thanks for the offer. Let me conduct my research and then I will decide.

As you are in Ilford, and I am in Stratford, this could be an easy solution for both of us!

It’s a superb amp, I need need more channels otherwise it would be a keeper for sure! Comes with warranty for piece of mind too! :)
 
If this possible sale, or talk of the sale, goes any further can you both move it to the classifieds please to keep within the Forum rules.:smashin:
 
So my Denon arrived as promised, I set it up and was supper happy. Everything was amazing.

Then on Thursday night, come home from work. Pop on some tunes whilst I unpack the dishwasher and boooooom. Amp pops. Very unfortunate. I contacted Peter Tyson, they have arranged a DPD collection on Tuesday. So far Peter Tyson have been very responsive, I will keep you updated on the Denon outcome / timelines.
 
So the pickup was easy as pie. Well done PeterTyson and DPD.

Sadly, I am told that it will take 3-5 weeks to get an outcome. This is really unfortunate given that I barely had the amp for that long :-( Hopefully I get lucky and we get an outcome sooner than that.
 
Has it gone over the 30 days since delivery when you reported it to them?
 
Sorry to be clear when did you receive the amp, was it more than 30 days before you reported the fault.

If it was under then you should be seeking a straight replacement for Peter Tyson
 
Ah. I received it on 05 September, and the amp faulted on 03 October. However, I ordered the amp in late August so that might put me past the 30 days mark? Thoughts? Should I be chasing a brand new one from PT?
 
It’s when it was delivered to you, not when ordered.

Have a quick scan of this


As it has gone pop in the first 30 days, that's usually something faulty significant and I wouldn't personally be happy with a repair. I would push for a replacement
 
If you have reported the fault to PT within the 30 days of taking delivery of the receiver then you are within your rights to reject the unit. The 3rd of October would make it 28 days, you had two days to report it to PT, legally. As it is so close to that date I would still respectfully ask PT for a brand new replacement.
 
PT will try and push a repair but for less than 30 days reject and ask for new.

They are usually fine with this but you need to push them.
 
Thank you @logiclee, @gibbsy ,@ChuckMountain . I think you are right, a repaired unit would leave me a bit anxious and never completely trusting my expensive new toy. I have gone back to PT and requested a replacement unit (once Denon have given me the all clear) quoting the Consumer Rights Act.

I appreciate all of your input here. Thank you.
 
PT have agreed. I posted them the last bits and bobs today (manuals, etc) that were not sent back to Denon. Hopefully its all resolved fairly soon. I am keen to be music listening again.

Now.... can I resist the temptation to upgrade to the X3600... o_O
 
Now.... can I resist the temptation to upgrade to the X3600.
Unless you wanted the extra channels available on the X3600 it would not be an upgrade per se. To upgrade you would need to visit the next tier up, the X4500.
 
I thought the X3600 had a significantly better process on board too?

Either way, it doesnt matter. PeterTyson delivered my replacement (new) amp today. I am seriously impressed by how quickly they turned that around. Kudos to team PT! Tonight I will get the amp all setup :)
 
I thought the X3600 had a significantly better process on board too?

Either way, it doesnt matter. PeterTyson delivered my replacement (new) amp today. I am seriously impressed by how quickly they turned that around. Kudos to team PT! Tonight I will get the amp all setup :)
It's got four more processors on board enabling nine channels of amplification over the 3500. That's 5.2.4 out of the box with the potential for 7.2.4 with an additional power amp. Not better just more.
 
Either way, it doesnt matter. PeterTyson delivered my replacement (new) amp today. I am seriously impressed by how quickly they turned that around. Kudos to team PT! Tonight I will get the amp all setup :)

Good result but to be fair though, they should have replaced out straight away, there should never have been a 3-5 week potential delay. Next day delivery is surely to be expected these days :)
 

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