Denon AVR-X1700H + Elac Debut B5.2 help

Seany70363

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Hi all, I am a new member just looking for some help with my recent home cinema setup...

I purchased my first AVR a few months ago - a Denon AVR-X1700H along with some Elac Debut B5.2 bookshelf speakers and an Elac Debut S10.2 sub.

I was previously using a Panasonic SC-BTT755 blu-ray/theatre system - and have kept the surround and centre speakers from this, with the intent to purchase additional Elacs further down the line.

My room is a fairly small 15ft square. The speakers are placed in a 7ft equilateral triangle, around 1.5ft from the rear wall.

My experience with this setup has mostly been good - a definite upgrade.

However there does seem to be a slight lack of clarity in the sound. Not noticeable with movies - but usually whilst watching TV or listening to music in stereo (without the sub), particularly at lower volume levels the sound comes across as being dull - the best way I can describe it is as if someone is holding a piece of cardboard in front of the speakers.

Listening to music at louder volumes does seem better, particularly with well mastered tracks - but I do find myself constantly adjusting the bass/treble controls for other tracks in order to brighten them up.

Setting the AVR to direct mode is practically unusable - very muddy and the bass is overwhelming.

So I have Audyssey enabled and set to flat all the time - this decreases the bass and increases the high end trebles.

I have both dynamic EQ and dynamic volume turned off - dynamic EQ just re-introduces the bass at any reference level. Dynamic volume just makes things louder/more compressed.

Whilst watching TV or listening to music in stereo I have the Elacs set as "large" with the sub disabled in the speaker setup. Setting them to "small" does seem to help somewhat - with the sub powered off the crossover (80hz) essentially then acts as a high pass filter.

I find my experience somewhat surprising - as the Elacs are highly praised online and are known to be a well balanced speaker for the price. If anything they should have a little too much treble...

So I was wondering if anyone here has had a similar issue and/or has any advice they can give me?

I am contemplating either trying a stereo amp (maybe Cambridge Audio AXA35) in place of the AVR for music/TV - or trying some different speakers with the AVR (maybe Klipsch R-40M) but I am not sure if I'd just be wasting my time!
 
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Sounds like you have tried most tricks on the receiver. With the Denon you could use stereo mode for music listening and set the Audussey as "Bypass L/R" it´s where you find the Reference/Flat target curves. Most members who has tried this prefers it over the Direct mode. It keeps the correction on subwoofer.

You probably have played with the toe in angle of the 5.2s so going perhaps more aggressive toe in with the speakers directly pointing toward listeners vs. shooting straight you should notice change.

If nothing helps then you need to look in different speakers. Stay away from the cheap Klipsches though. For your taste if i had to guess i would consider B&W 607 S2 which often goes on sale and Dali Spektor 1 or 2 / Dali Oberon 1 or 2. I think you will find these three has more energy with the HF and many has commented about the extra clarity they sense. But don`t buy blind, find a dealer that gives you home trial. AV.com / Audio T / Richer Sounds etc. should offer this option. First you can go listen them in the store to get first taste and then ask home trial to be sure as each room is different.
 
Sounds like you have tried most tricks on the receiver. With the Denon you could use stereo mode for music listening and set the Audussey as "Bypass L/R" it´s where you find the Reference/Flat target curves. Most members who has tried this prefers it over the Direct mode. It keeps the correction on subwoofer.

You probably have played with the toe in angle of the 5.2s so going perhaps more aggressive toe in with the speakers directly pointing toward listeners vs. shooting straight you should notice change.

If nothing helps then you need to look in different speakers. Stay away from the cheap Klipsches though. For your taste if i had to guess i would consider B&W 607 S2 which often goes on sale and Dali Spektor 1 or 2 / Dali Oberon 1 or 2. I think you will find these three has more energy with the HF and many has commented about the extra clarity they sense. But don`t buy blind, find a dealer that gives you home trial. AV.com / Audio T / Richer Sounds etc. should offer this option. First you can go listen them in the store to get first taste and then ask home trial to be sure as each room is different.
Thank you for your advice.

I have been using stereo mode for music so far. I have only tried bypass L/R a few times briefly and seem to recall preferring flat to it - but will try it again during my next listening session.

I have tried varying the toe-in. I haven't owned many speakers in the past but from what I can tell the 5.2s don't seem too fussy and the tone is very similar at most angles. I did settle on a slight toe-in, maybe 15 degrees or so.

The Dali Spektor 2's look like they might be an option - I may look into having a trial of them, thanks for your suggestion.

I have been reading a few articles recently that state the 5.2s are at their best when paired with higher powered amps or amps with high quality components - they are 6 ohms, max 120W so am concerned that maybe the 80W per channel rating of the X1700H is a tad on the low side?

Another article mentioned that the X1700H is relatively low-spec compared to Denon's pricier AVRs and that its musicality or musical insight isn't as good either - so I guess the components are of an average quality? Maybe not the best match for the 5.2s?
 
The receiver is what it is - not the lowest model as there is S range for that, but there is still fine amount of power if you look most stereo amps are in the 40-80w region aswell, the more affordable ones. The Denon powersupply is still decent sized to be able to power 7speakers. It doesn`t have preout L/R for you to use stereo amp with ht-bypass so you need some Beresford type of switcher probably then.

But i don`t believe the amp will make so dramatic difference as you hope as you now turning the tone controls big time so clearly the speakers are not doing it for you with the highs.

Listen the B&Ws aswell cause they are probably more to your taste if you like that brighter sound judging from feedback and measurements. Still good chance that we see some pre christmas sales.

Vickers Hifi at York has Dali:

Richer Sounds York probably has the 607 S2 and also Dali in stock. You can easily book demo time by calling them and they usually let you compare 2-3 speakers side by side. No need to buy anything. I think the B&Ws went 299£-349£ when on sale.

Dali Oberon 1 is newer over Spektors with better cabinet structure, drivers and very likely better audio crossover components. You might be able to compare the Dalis side by side at RS. Won´t cost a thing so why not.

To my ears the cheaper Dali`s are definitely brighter and they throw nice wide soundstage. That was the case with Zensors which is similar to Oberons. However i have read similar thoughts for the Spektors. Dali recommends that you don´t toe in them or they can become overly bright/harsh. It`s in the manual.

Keep us posted of your findings. I hope you can visit couple hifi stores. If nothing else it´s always fun time to listen different gear. :)
 
For movies I keep Dynamic EQ at 0dB (while using the Reference curve), it works just fine like that in my opinion. In the Speakers setting I set Crossover at General (80kHz).

But for music I switch to the Flat curve (less bass / more treble) and I lower Dynamc EQ Level to -10 or -15 dB, depending on how loud the music was mastered. This turned out to be key to get music to sound better on the Denon AVR's, in my opinion.

Furthermore when listening to music, in the Speakers settings I set Crossover to Individual and have adjusted the individual speakers to match their capabilities. What made quite a difference was to set the crossover my front speakers at 40hz instead of 80 hz. This gave me a more natural, less bass heavy sound and better stereo spread.
 

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