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Denon AVR 3802: Which set-up is better, 6.1 "MTRX ON" or 6.1 "NON MTRX"?

Discussion in 'AV Receivers & Amplifiers' started by tk2001, May 26, 2002.

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  1. tk2001

    tk2001
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    I have recently upgraded my home theatre to a 7.1 set-up (7 speakers), adding a pair of Mission m7ds and mounting them onto my back living-room wall and pairing them next to each other.

    I spent most of today playing most of my dvd collection containing a mixture of Dolby Digital/DTS 5.1 soundtracks and I have come across a fundamental difference between playing them through 6.1 "MTRX ON" & "NON MTRX" and heres the breakdown between the two:

    5.1 soundtrack via 6.1 "MTRX ON":

    Sound signal coming from the 2 surround-back channels is in 'mono' - meaning the SAME SIGNAL is coming out from BOTH surround-back speakers.




    5.1 soundtrack via 6.1 "NON MTRX":

    Sound signal coming from the 2 surround-back channels is in 'stereo' - meaning there are 2 DIFFERENT SIGNALS coming out from the surround-back speakers and this IMHO creates a smoother transition between sound panning from the surround-left to the surround-back, and to the surround-right speakers.

    Regardless of what 6.1 mode you use, they both do a good job of creating a convincing sound-field from behind the listenning possition. IMO though, I prefer to use the 6.1 "NON MTRX" mode, as the stereo surround-back signals (although matrixed) offers a more fluid transition between the surround speakers (SL, SBL, SBR, SR).

    Has anyone else made this observation?

    PS. For movies that contain Dolby Digital 5.1 EX, I take it I switch the surround setting to 6.1 "MTRX ON" to achieve the best results?
     
  2. Me

    Me
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    In MTRX ON mode the back surround speakers will be mono( looking for an appropriate surround back signal. Remember it does not matter how many back surround speakers you use, they are mono. In NON MTRX the back surround and side surround are simply pared up. A bit like using four speakers for surround duties in a standard 5.1 set up(two at each side of the room). That is how I understood the set up. Leaving NON MTRX set is what the manual advises because not all Discs are flagged.Simply set the surround mode to Auto or set manually.
    Regards. Mark
     
  3. petrolhead

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    Interesting. Must try this as I have also found with Non EX films the back rears sound muddled.

    I will try this and give you my opinion.

    Thanks for the info
     
  4. Jase

    Jase
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    As mentioned already, MATRIX ON means the Surround back speakers produce a MONO signal that has undergone matrix processing and has been derived from info hidden in the surround left & right channels.

    NON MATRIX just sends the left & right surround information to the surround back speakers, surround left comes out of surround back left etc.

    I´ve never found using the NON MATRIX option to be very good in my setup, prefering to stick with normal 5.1 or using the MATRIX ON option when its for EX/ES titles.

    Also best to leave the AFDM (auto flag detect mode) switched OFF and just switch on the Surround Back speakers when needed.
     
  5. Bonesy

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    I'm sure I should understand this from the answers given already, but

    on a 2802, with only one rear output,

    If matrix is looking for a matrixed signal, and it doesn't find one, does it then not play anything?

    and in non-matrix, as the rear centre is mono, which surround side signal does it use?
     
  6. Jase

    Jase
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    The matrix decoder will always produce something whether the film is EX/ES encoded or not.

    I would imagine if you only have one rear centre channel it will receive a mix of the two channels (like it does with the centre channel in 5ch Stereo mode). I´m not sure if you can even select NON MATRIX on the 2802??
     
  7. Bonesy

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    Jase, I think you're right, just reading the manual, which says,

    non-matrix, The same signals those of the surround channels are output from the surround back channels.

    their english is interesting, but yeah, probably meaning they just derive an appropriate signal, similar to phantom.

    matrix on, Surround back channel is reproduced using digital matrix processing.

    ie. DD EX, etc.
     
  8. petrolhead

    petrolhead
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    Spent a good hour yesterday testing my 3802 with Matrix and Non-Matrix, left the auto flag on.

    I first tried Star Wars PM which is an EX DVD R2. Sound was good either way but felt better with Matrix, which I would have thought.

    Then tried Saving Private Ryan DTS R2 which is non EX. IMO again the sound was better with Matrix. When I set it to Non-Matrix, as expected, the same sound came out of Left Surround and Left Rear and the same sound came out of Right Surround and Right Rear.

    I am sure some other Non Ex films, which may be a little week in the rear department to start with, you may not get anything coming out of the rear speakers and would therefore sound a little better when set to Non-Marix.
     
  9. Doug

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    So I have seen the front panel display show ES Matrix or ES Discrete when playing DTS, but only "6.1 Surround" when playing DD, be it normal 5.1 or EX. Should the display read "DD EX" or something when playing and EX encoded disc? I have tried altering the surround back settings as above but it makes no difference.

    :confused:
     
  10. petrolhead

    petrolhead
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    No.

    I think this is because Denon may break some copyright. My understanding is that DD EX should be THX EX

    I am sure someone can probable give a better answer though
     
  11. Jase

    Jase
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  12. tk2001

    tk2001
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    Are you sure that the surround-back-left channel uses the SAME SIGNAL as the surround-left channel via NON MATRIX?

    I've spent hours experimenting on 'Halo' on the Xbox via NON MATRIX and I've found that every time a marine/enemy is directly behing me, the amp gives off the correct surround-back signal. Surely this would be impossible if the surround-back channels used exactly the same signal as the surround-left/right?
     
  13. Jase

    Jase
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    I´m sure it is. It cant be using anything else. The only thing I can think of is if the channel level of the surround back speakers is higher than the surround speakers the sound would seem to come from them more. It could also be down to the surround mix itself, to get something to appear as though its behind you with a 5.1 setup, sound comes out of both rear speakers creating the impression its behind you (accentuated more so if you actually have speakers behind you producing that signal).

    If you want the surround back speakers working as intended why not just leave it in MATRIX mode anyway??
     
  14. Doug

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    So does this mean that the 3802 is not capable of decoding EX signals? Is there any difference then between watching 5.1 DD or DD EX in terms of the sound from the surround back speakers, as the display reads "6.1 surround" for both, how do I know if I am getting EX sound?
    Thanks for your help, I guess I just want to know if I should bother buying EX discs, I know ES discs are worth it as the display says ES Discrete.
     
  15. Jase

    Jase
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    Yes it can decode EX signals, they just couldnt use the "EX" bit of the license.

    You can use 6.1 surround on ANY film. Those that are recorded in EX sound great (e.g The Phantom Menace). For the films that arent true EX titles you´ll get varying results, some sound great, others not so good.
     
  16. tk2001

    tk2001
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    Can you please name the DVD movies that are recorded in DD 5.1 EX/DTS 6.1 discrete that makes GREAT USE of the surround-back channel? - I've just watched Ruch Hour 2 again but this time in DTS 6.1 discrete and I was expecting better use of the surround-back channel.

    PS. For those who own 'The Gladiator' R2, is it worth getting the R1 version because of the DTS 6.1 discrete mix over the DD 5.1 EX mix?
     
  17. Jase

    Jase
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    Heres a list of DTS & DTS ES titles (Matrix & Discrete)

    http://homepage.ntlworld.com/bwescombe/dts_dvd.htm

    Another list here

    http://www.dolby.com/movies/films_previous.html

    and here for future releases

    http://www.dolby.com/movies/films_upcoming.html


    The Haunting R1 in DTS Discrete is probably the best, followed by Gladiator R1 and then Se7en R1 & R2.

    I found the R1 DTS Discrete version of Gladiator to be improved over the R2 DTS Matrix version. More clarity, detail in the surround back speakers.

    The World is not Enough (James Bond) is another good EX track.
     

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