Denon AVR 1311 issues

Discussion in 'AV Receivers & Amplifiers' started by dembala, Jan 11, 2012.

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  1. dembala

    dembala
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    Hi Everbody. I thought to start a topic for the AVR 1311 issues in general. I hope you will like it.

    As a starter here my problems that i've been experiencing, i'm wondering you guys have the same issues. If anybody else reading this has some ideas, please share.

    - I'm having problems with NIGHT MODE. Seems that after some time (a few weeks) my AVR gets to a state where the NIGHT MODE doesn't work at all for Dolby Digital. I can hear that it doesn't do what it should do, it doesn't compress the sound dynamics of the movie. I can hear this by switching the night mode on and off and actually nothing changes. Loud effects, silent talk, and that's a problem.
    Solution is to reset the processor, get to factory default, configure my settings from scratch and then it works again for a while. Quite annoying, since i'm using my AVR in an enviroment where too loud sounds are not really welcome during the night.
    Anybody having the same issue? I was wondering about a firmware upgrade, but i can't find a new one for this hardware.

    - The other thing that bothers me is the following: There supposed to be a way of playing Dolby Digital sources through the Dolby Pro Logic II decoder. I've read that on higher end devices this is possible. Actually even in the user manual of my AVR 1311 it's stated that when i play Dolby Digital source and press on the Surround Mode on the remote, i can change the modes. That's fine, but the manual also sais that i should be able to get to a mode where the display sais: DOLBY D + DPL II or something like that. I can't reach this mode. I have DOLBY D, STEREO, VIRTUAL, MCH STEREO, and that's it. I can't play DD through PLII. The reason i need this is related to night mode. I found that listening to PLII is more convienient in a silent enviroment. I'm ready to sacrifise the multichannel sound and have it only PLII for that gain in the front center speaker. Actually, a stereo source running through PLII sounds much better in a silent enviroment than a DD source with Night mode enabled.
    I can't reach this status.

    The only case when PLII showes up on a Dolby Digital source is when the source is Dolby Digital with 2 channels only. Then i get the small icon that showes the DDigital format, and PLII on the display that showes the back channels which are obviously PLII. That state that the manual talks about (DOLBY D + PLII) i have never seen and can't reproduce.

    Other than this, the machine is a nice one, but i'm still trying to find the best way to get rid of Dolby Digital in some circumstances. So far my best option is to put it MCH Stereo, that helps, but not perfect.

    Hope you have some comments,
    Cheers.
     
  2. dembala

    dembala
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  3. Electric Mayhem

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    As you've discovered, PLII will only work with 2ch Dolby Digital. If the source is Dolby Digital 5.1 then that's the decoding format that the Amp will use.

    Dolby Digital + PLII will only be used if you have a 7.1 speaker setup.

    If you only want to use PLII then you'll need to set your source equipment to only output a 2ch digital signal or connect via analog. That kind of defeats having a 5.1/7.1 setup in the first place though.
     
  4. dembala

    dembala
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    I've seen out that people suggest to change to a higher end hardware that supports Audyssey Dynamic Volume. With this feature you can reach much better sound management than with night mode (DRC) only. For example AVR-2113 supports Audyssey Dynamic Volume with 3 modes (Midnight, Evening, Day) that makes it much better to watch movies late night than the regular range compressed night mode.
    I'm still struggling with the original problem, so i may change to this newer, higher grade AVR.

    I also read that based on the actual source night mode could work or couldn't. So night mode can work only if the sound engineer didn't do tricks to prohibit this when running the source through the AVR. I'm uncertain what this exactly means but i'm guessing the soundtrack can be engineered in a way that the dynamic range compression isn't effective.

    The most problems i seem to have when the source is DD 2.0 meaning it's a DD source but only with 2 channels. Night mode is totally ineffective with these sources and the perceptual quality is also not good.

    I'll also experiment with compressing the dynamics of the sound at the source. My WDTV Live Streaming player can do that on DD sources. I'm not sure if it does also with DD2.0 sources, but i'll give it a try.
     
  5. dante01

    dante01
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    DRC can only be applied to Dolby Digital or DTS encoded audio, but the night mode is not the same thing as the DRC setting of either your receiver or the source. You can apply the night mode to any audio source irrespective of how it is encoded. Newer Denon receivers no longer have a Night Mode and use Audyssey Dynamic Volume instead. Again, this can be used on any audio source, but requires that Audyssey be engaged. The AVR2113 is actually now a discontinued model and wasn't the lowest model to include Audyssey MultEQ XT or Dynamic Volume. The AVR1713 had the same implementation of Audysssey as that found onboard the AVR2113.

    If you are expecting something wondrous from Audyssey's Dynamic Volume then I think you are going to be disappointed. It does exactly the same thing as the Night Mode.
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2013
  6. dembala

    dembala
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    You say that the night mode is not the same as DRC? On which receiver? On 1311 i have only night mode with off/low/med/high settings. I thought this is DRC at least the manual sais that this should compress the dynamics of DD sources. It doesnt work with DTS. I saw that it only does anything with DD, the manual mentions this, that its ineffective on DTS.

    However, recently i couldnt find any source where this setting would do anything to the sound. I'm not sure if the device is broken or its just the source that is not appropriate for this feature to work, but it simply does nothing at all to any kind of source i have tried: Dd51, Dd2.0, stereo.

    I was hoping that Dynamic Volume would at least do something more.
    I was wondering what solution there would be for late night movie watching. I thought if i could just turn off all speakers... Leave only the center on with 5ch stereo setting and turn all the rest off, all kind of sounds would go to the center with a relative balance. But you cant turn off he speakers...

    Is Dynamic Volume really not worth it? I knew about 1713 but i wanted to go a little higher for Airplay, networing, etc. But i see you are right, x2000 could be the new choice.

    I'm wondering how i could make sure that Drc is not working on my device and then i could bring it to repair... Is there any test source i could use, where it should work for sure?
     
  7. dante01

    dante01
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    On every receiver that includes such a mode.

    DRC is a standard that is only applicable to bitreamed audio as opposed to a feature that can be applied to any audio source. Many manufacturers incorporate a night mode of some description that has no reliance on the same hints DRC relys upon. Yamaha for instance have a system they term Adaptive DRC that is a totally different setting to the DRC setting onboard their receivers which is useful when you are listening at lower volumes or at night. Yamaha AV receiver also include an industry standardised Dynamic Range control as do most DVD and Blu-ray players. Although they do something similar to one another, they are two different settings and the DRC setting should not be confused with the night mode setting or similar on an AV receiver.

    Have you tried just putting your receiver into a stereo mode and then turning the volume down. Why would you want to use just the centre speaker??? I'm not sure as to why you've a problem? Your issue doesn't seem to be associated with trying to listen to action films at low volume levels, but more concerned about some way of reducing the master volume without using the volume control? What about turning the volume down, have you tried that? I've no problem listening to 5.1 encoded content at night and have no issues with my neighbours while doing so. Maybe you should look at you speaker placements and calibration? Maybe your issue is more to do with bass boom than it is to do with dynaimic range?
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2013
  8. dante01

    dante01
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    The 1713 had both Airplay and networking and the Dynamic Volume it implements is the exact same Dynamic volume you'll find onboard the AVRX1000 and the AVRX2000. Why do you need an AVRX2000 when you can probably get an AVR1713 or an AVR2113 for less? Also consider Yamaha's now discontinued RXV673 which will include the conventional Dynamic Range setting along with Yamaha's proprietary Adaptive DRC setting.
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2013
  9. dante01

    dante01
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    This is incorrect. I think you mean Pro Logic IIx as opposed to just Pro Logic II? PLIIx creates pseudo 7.1 and PLII creates pseudo 5.1. You can apply PLIIx to a discrete 5.1 formats in order to create two additional back channels for 7.1. PLII will create 5.1 from any source lacking the full complement of 6 channels associated with 5.1.

    PLII will be used whenever engaged with any source with fewer than 6 channels of audio in conjunction with a 5.1 speaker configuration. It will even create 5.1 from non 5.1 source if used with a setup with a 7.1 speaker configuration. There is no requirement for more than a 5.1 speaker setup in order to use Pro Logic II.

    PLIIx will be used whenever engaged with any source with fewer than 8 channels of audio in conjunction with a 7.1 speaker configuration. PLIIx requires a 7.1 AV receiver and a 7.1 speaker configuration.

    PLII will not be applicable to any source if the source already has 5.1 or more discrete channels of audio. PLIIx will not be applicable to any source that includes 7.1 channels of discrete audio.

    Also note that Dolby Digital encoded audio isn't always to be 5.1 in nature! Dolby Digital is often used for stereo sources, especially in relation to HD TV broadcasts. Either PLII or PLIIx can be applied to Dolby Digital encoded content be it stereo or 5.1 and will create pseudo channels in association with Dolby Digital encoded content if such content is missing the full complement of channels. Not to mention that Dolby Digital has no ability to have more than 6 discrete channels.

    Another point to remember is that Pro Logic does absolutely nothing to the actual discrete channels present and only creates additional psudo channels from those discrete channels or extracts channels that may be matrixed within the discrete channels present. The original discrete channels are output unadulterated when applying Pro Logic processing.

    The above guidlines also apply to DTS NEO:6 and NEO:X sound processing modes which do a similar thing to Dolby's Pro Logic processing.
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2013
  10. dembala

    dembala
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    OK.
    Your replies are very valuable. But i'm getting more and more confused :)

    - Is Night Mode on Denon receivers equal to DRC or it isn't? If it is not DRC, what exactly is Night Mode doing?

    - You suggested that 2113 is discontinued that's why i was referring to x2000, after reviewing current models. Would it be better to stick to 2113 anyway? You are right about 1713, i couldn't make a decision yet if i go for 1713 or 2113. x2000 is quite expensive.

    - There is no Night Mode any more on newer receivers. Does this mean that if the AVR has Dynamic Volume, Night Mode is not there any more?

    - The original problem is not with the volume level, but with the balance between the different sounds -> in an action movie the effects are too loud and the speech is weak. If i turn down the volume as you suggested i can't hear the speech from the center channel loud enough. I already figured out that if i put the system to 5ch stereo (as you also suggested, or stereo) and then turn down the volume, i get a reasonable configuration but then i totally loose the surround of course.
    The reason why i concentrate on the center channel is that my main speakers are quite far away from the center and the tv above it, so the speech itself is better to come from the center.
     
  11. dante01

    dante01
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    DRC (termed as just Dynamic Compression on Denon AV receivers) is a standard first introduced by Dolby that is only applicable to discrete audio formats, originally only Dolby Digital, then DTS as well and now also applicable to both Dolby's and DTS's HD audio formats. The narrowing of the dynamic range occurs at the decoding stage so is either applied by a player if outputting as LPCM or by the receiver if bitstreaming the audio from the player to the receiver.

    Other forms of audio dynamic range compression exist and are given various proprietary names or generically termed as Night Modes. These types of DRC have nothing to do with the standardises Dynamic Range settings you get within both the settings of your receiver and your Blu-ray or DVD player. The proprietary Night Modes can be applied to any source and are not restricted to being used in conjunction with bitsreamed audio formats or having to be applied to the audio prior to decoding on the player itself as would be the case with the standardised DRC.

    The AVRX2000 is the AVR2113's replacement. The biggest difference between the AVR1713 and the AVR2113 is that the AVR1713 is only a 5.1 receiver while the AVR2113 is a 7.1 receiver. This is much the same when comparing the AVRX1000 to the AVRX2000 which both replace the AVR1713 and the AVR2113 respectively.

    You can pick up a refurbished AVR1713 for as little as £200:
    [ame="http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/141019236538?lpid=54&device=c&adtype=pla&crdt=0&ff3=1&ff11=ICEP3.0.0&ff12=67&ff13=80&ff14=54"]Denon AVR1713 3D Home Theatre Cinema AV Receiver Black | eBay[/ame]

    or a new boxed one for £225:
    https://www.forumhifivisual.co.uk/prod.asp?product_idx=4132

    THe AVR2113s are getting scarce now, but there are still a few left. This one will cost you £270 for an opened box model:
    http://exceptional-av.co.uk/denon-avr-2113-open-box.html?gclid=CK7o45HXzbkCFebJtAodO3wA9g

    or you can get an unopened model for about £350:
    https://www.forumhifivisual.co.uk/prod.asp?product_idx=3763

    The newer Denon models no longer have a Night Mode. You'd still get a Dynamic Range setting, but you'd also now get an Audyssey Dynamic Volume setting too. You'd need to go into the receiver's main setup settings in order to engage or disengage this seeing as there's no specific button on the remote to control its use as there was with Night Mode. As with Night Mode and unlike DRC, Dynamic Volume is applicable to all sources and not just bitstreamed digital sources.


    As I mentioned, you could also consider a Yamaha receiver with its Adaptive DRC option rather than relying upon Denon and its implementation of Audyssey's Dynamic Volume? An RXV673 would cost you £300 - 350:
    [ame="http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/121161877645?lpid=54&device=c&adtype=pla&crdt=0&ff3=1&ff11=ICEP3.0.0&ff12=67&ff13=80&ff14=54"]Richer Sounds Yamaha RX-V673 AV Receiver upscales to 4K resolution & Fts AirPlay 4957812509732 | eBay[/ame]
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2013
  12. dembala

    dembala
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    Hi,
    Thanks for the in depth, really appreciated.
    The user manual of the 1311 describes that the Night Mode (i understand now that this may be a proprietary feature) works only for Dolby Digital sources. In my case, not even there...

    1713 seems reasonable really, i don't need 7.1 setup.

    I'll check out Yamaha, but so far i figured that Denon is much superior in sound quality than other receivers in this particular price range. I also use the receiver to listen to stereo and multichannel music.

    Understanding the topic better now i'm still wondering why my Night Mode is not effective with any source (still looking for some DD test sound package) and whether its worth to bring the device for repair.

    Do you have personal experience with the Yamaha receivers considering how "good" they are in night environment? I was really satisfied with the music abilities of Denon so changing to a complete different brand would be a brave move for me that needs thinking. I considered Onkyo as well for some time, but i read bad reviews specially compared to Denon in the same price class. More features (hdmi ports, etc) but less quality. However, i would consider home theater features now priority one and music only prio 2.
     
  13. dante01

    dante01
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    I've both a Denon AVR3313 and a Yamaha RXV2065. I prefer the sound I get from the Yamaha and find the DEnon's sound to be too laid back, both in relation to stereo music sources as well as film soundtracks. Digital sound processing is far superior onboard the Yamaha models and the only real advantage the DEnon models have is their inclusion of Audyssey's MultEQ room correction. After saying this, I personal haven't found Audyssey's room correction any better than the YPAO parametric EQing used by Yamaha.
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2013
  14. dembala

    dembala
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    Which Yamaha model would you recommend?

    I checked A730 which is nice and has a feature called "Dialogue Lift" that sounds very much what i want...
    V475 lacks this feature but is for much less money.

    I'm thinking now in the 450-500 pound range. I've had two lower end receivers, this time i would go a little higher.
     
  15. dembala

    dembala
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    Yamaha RX-V673 would still fit...
     
  16. dante01

    dante01
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    I'd suggest the RXV673. This is last years model and now replaced by the RXV675. You can get an RXV673 for just over £300 if you don't mind a refurbished model:

    [ame=http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/121161877645?lpid=54&device=c&adtype=pla&crdt=0&ff3=1&ff11=ICEP3.0.0&ff12=67&ff13=80&ff14=54]Richer Sounds Yamaha RX-V673 AV Receiver upscales to 4K resolution & Fts AirPlay 4957812509732 | eBay[/ame]

    or you can get one for £325 new and unopened boxed:

    Yamaha RX-V673 7.2 network receiver - from Audio Express


    Dialogue Lift isn't what you assume it to be. It fascilitates the use of additional front presence speakers to help move where the dialogue audio is perceived to be eminating from. This comes in handly if your a PJ screen where the centre speaker can only be located some distance from where you'd expect to output dialogue from.

    The feature you'd be interested in is termed Adaptive DRC. This feature applies dynamic range compression exponentially the louder you set the volume.
     
  17. dembala

    dembala
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    Hi,
    I've made some investigation and narrowed down the possibilities to 3 receivers that would fit my budget. I'm very much interested in your opinion which one to choose, if any.

    1. Due to number of connectors on the back (HDMI, optical) by best liking so far is the Onkyo 525. I've read that Onkyo is not that good any more like in previous times but given the budget factor and looking at the features of this receiver it's hard not to think about it.
    Onkyo | TX-NR525
    It has all Audyssey, 6 HDMI (i need at least 5) and so on. Unfortunately it doesn't have a front HDMI. No Night mode, but that's now Audessey Dynamic Volume if i'm getting it right. The price is very good. It's just the bad reviews that people say about todays Onkyo... No Airplay :(

    2. Yamaha RX-V475
    I'm looking at Yamaha because you suggested. I find this receiver very nice, also reviews are very good. Doesn't have a front HDMI either, but ok. Only 5 HDMI that is the minimum for me, but OK. Slightly higher price but still OK. YPAO vs Audyssey -> I can't comment. Adaptive DRC vs Audyssey Dynamic Volume -> can't really comment, you said the latter is not that good as DRC.
    No AirPlay -> have AppleTV, but would be nice to have it in the AVR.

    3. Denon 1713
    Only 4 HDMI and here we stop. The higher models are overpriced.

    Any other suggestions?
    Thanks
     
  18. dante01

    dante01
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    THe TXNR515 has Audyssey, but a lower level version of it than found on similar level Denon models.. It only incorporate 2EQ while Denon models would include MultEQ XT.

    Onkyo receivers don't include Airplay


    I've both a Yamaha and a Denon receiver and I found Adaptive DRC preferable to Dynamic Volume. The Yamaha also has far more tweakable DSP options that any other brand of receiver.The RXV673 does include an HDMII input on its front.

    [​IMG]

    Despite the age, the RXV673 is still a superior model when compared to the RXV475. You'd be better spending the same money on last years RXV673 than you'd be spending it on the new RXV475. You'll probably get an RXV673 for less than you'd be paying for an RXV475!


    Audyssey should in theory be better, but I still find the audio I get from my older YPAO reliant RXV2065 to be better than the audio I get from my Denon AVR3313. Room correction doesn't automatically make a receiver sound better and is only of any use if you actually have issues with your room's acoustics to begin with.
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2013
  19. dembala

    dembala
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    V475 is cheaper by 1/5th compared to V673 brand new unopened here where i'm sitting (Hungary). 673 is too expensive for me, 475 is also on the edge. Besides, i don't need 7.x, only 5.1.

    I like DRC now better based on your judgement than Dynamic Volume. Escpecially because you have both and compared :)
    But the price is too high for the 673 and even the 475 is more expensive than the Onkyo 525.

    If i compare Yamaha Onkyo and Denon at the same price level and at the needed amount of HDMI ports (673, 525, 2113), Onkyo is a clear winner in price. If only the bad reviews weren't there :)

    Having said this, first i'll get my 1311 to service to see if that brings anything to Night mode :)
     
  20. dembala

    dembala
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    Last edited: Sep 18, 2013
  21. dante01

    dante01
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    Adaptive DRC yes, not DRC as in the Dynamic Range settings associated with bit streamed content ;)

    Here in the UK, the RXV673 sells for less than the RXV475.

    The EU AVR1713 has 4 HDMI inputs on its rear.
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2013
  22. dembala

    dembala
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    4+1 HDMI on 1713. Denon just replied me.
     
  23. dante01

    dante01
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    Yes, it has an HDMI input on its front panel too ;)
     
  24. dembala

    dembala
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    It is impossible for me to understand Yamaha's website. There are too many receivers :) can't see which model is current/last year/before, etc.
    I tried to get a picture what my options are. You are suggesting v673 which is too pricy for me, so i stick to v475 which even has airplay :) and has 5 hdmi connectors. So perfect :) Price is also OK.
    Is there any alternative in your opinion that i should consider when speaking Yamaha? Price range should stay...

    RX-V475 - AV Receivers/Amplifiers - Yamaha - Other European Countries
     
  25. dante01

    dante01
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    What about an RXV473? This is last years model and was replaced by the RXV475. There's very little between the new model when compared to the one from last year and your may be able to get it for less than you can get an RXV475? There's also the RXV573 and the 575.
     
  26. dembala

    dembala
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    I'm getting overhelmed by options... I read somewhere now that Dolby Volume is the real thing :) Probably it's in higher end models out of my reach.

    I've also looked at Onkyo 616 which seems to have everything i want except MultiEQ which is replaced there with 2EQ. Do you think this causes any meaningful difference in daily use? I listen to the thing from the same location in the room every time. Is that MutliEQ is about? Different listening positions (this chair or that chair) ?
    If so, i don't think i need to spend extra money for that.

    With the Onkyo 616 everything is right: front HDMI, 7 back HDMIs! Audyssey, only airplay is missing which doesn't hurt (appletv).

    Selecting the damn thing is hard pain... :) :) i'll sleep on it.
     
  27. dante01

    dante01
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    Its the same irrespective of the model that utilises it.

    The real thing?

    I've a relatively high end Denon receiver that includes Dynamic Volume and I find nothing special or noteworthy about it.

    All-in-all, whatever form of DRC you use it will not yield perfect results. In my experience, Adaptive DRC was better than Audyssey's Dynamic Volume, although I do not use either and prefer to have such DRC turned off entirely.
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2013
  28. dembala

    dembala
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    Final word:
    For Music -> Denon, Yamaha or Onkyo ? Irrespective of features...

    Thanks!
     
  29. dante01

    dante01
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    My order of preference would be Yamaha, Denon and then Onkyo. Denon are okay, but a liitle too laid back for my liking so Yamaha would be my choice.

    What speakers do you have?
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2013
  30. dembala

    dembala
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    I made a discovery today.
    For curiosity i switched on my good old DVD player (Panasonic DVR) to check a DVD. Believe or not when playing from this source on the Denon 1311 the Night Mode is perfectly working. The source is Dolby Digital (Transformers1) and the Night Mode is clearly there, actually i'm amazed how good and effective it works.

    I can't understand right now, why this is not working then playing from my media player (WD TV Live Streamer) with other movies. They also play in Dolby Digital (the receiver clearly indicates it). Both are running through HDMI connections.

    I'll do a test. I'll grab this dvd into an ISO file and play that from the media player, then at least the sources are exactly the same.

    I'm happy about this as i don't need to spend any money it seems, because the AVR has no problem :)

    My speakers are from JBL (TLX-8 fronts, E20 rears, EC25 center standing, HECO 30cm woofer)
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2013

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