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Denon AVC-A1SE vs AVC-A11SR

Discussion in 'AV Receivers & Amplifiers' started by Jase D, Feb 11, 2002.

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  1. Jase D

    Jase D
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    Hi

    I am looking to purchase either of these two Amps. I know the AVC-A1SE will have to have an upgrade for it which will make the amp more expensive as it is around £2500 at the moment.

    Which is the better of the two to buy. Also I have a laserdisc player which i still use occasionally, could i use either of the amps to get dolby digital sound out from it, i couldn't see an rf modulator on either of them.

    Cheers

    Jase
     
  2. Pack Dude

    Pack Dude
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    Hi,
    I have just bought the AVC-A11SR my first real AV amp.
    There is no RF modulator on the A11SR that I can see.

    I think the A1SE is a much older amp than the A11SR and it costs more even without the upgrade….maybe you could find somewhere to get a listen to both amps. It’s the only real way you will know which one is better for you.

    Avland sells both amps and has a little info about them on the site.

    http://www.avland.co.uk/denon/avca11sr/index.htm AVC-A11SR

    http://www.avland.co.uk/denon/avca1se/index.htm AVC-A1SE

    I am sure you can find other dealers and maybe get a better price if you shop around.
     
  3. andy0567

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    I own a Denon AVC-A1SE amp which brings me much pleasure. It has the reputation as being the best one box AV-amp and is Denon's top of the line AV amp.

    It does has a RF input- I use use it for my laserdisc player. The amp- usually for a Japanese company- is upgradable and a major upgrade costing between £500-800 is due within the next few months which will upgrade the amp to THX Ultra 2 status; DTS 24/26; Dolby Pro Logic 2; improved bass handling and more- details can be found at www.denon.co.uk

    While it may be an "old" component, it is damn fine. I suggest that you go to a dealer and audition the two Denon models you're interested in and then decide which you prefer based on sound quality; current and future needs; and budget.

    Hope this helps.

    Andrew
     
  4. MarkB

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    Jase D,

    Hi mate. I also own the A1SE and I think it is fabulous. Weather or not it is actually better than the A11SR is a matter of priorities. As you are aware of the upgrade you must also be aware of the release of the replacement for the A1SE, the A1SR, which has everything the A11SR has and a hell of a lot more.

    There are large on line communities for both machines, including of course this site.
    But try
    http://pub7.ezboard.com/faussiedvdandhtforumdenonavr5800informationforum
    for the AVC-A1SE,

    http://pub7.ezboard.com/faussiedvdandhtforumfrm27
    for the AVC-A11SR and

    http://pub7.ezboard.com/faussiedvdandhtforumfrm37
    for the AVC-A1SR

    Which ever one you decide good luck.

    Mark
     
  5. Jase

    Jase
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    Hi

    I own the A1SE as well and its a cracking amp (I would say that though wouldnt I!!:) ) but as the other members have said, you need to demo the two units and choose which one you like the sound of most.

    The A1SE will be having the upgrade and hopefully will have more upgrades in the future.

    Either way, they are both superb amps and sound amazing.

    cheers
     
  6. penacP

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    I've read the AVC-A1SE has a 1200 VA Toroidal transformer...

    What doest that mean ? What is this 1200 VA for ?

    Thank you to explain this to me :)

    Penac
     
  7. Stewart C

    Stewart C
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    I went for the 11SR and love it dearly.

    The A1SE is beautiful too so it's hard to decide. I listened to both and found the 11SR SHARC processing to be superior. However once the A1SE gets the upgrade this gap will be filled.

    So if sound quality is on a par or nearly on a par and functionality the same what do look at..............;

    Taking value for money into account, I think Stuart M Robinson put it right when he suggested that £2500 was far too much to spend on an integrated option, £1800 was a far better option. Forgetting ofcourse an upgrade of £600-£800 which could be such a long way away (shortage of chips) the A1SE owners are suffering a little.

    For that kind of money give me a Rotel Power Amp and a Tag McLaren Processor any day.

    Don't worry about transformer ratings. The transformer in the 11SR is much smaller than the A1SE but in real terms the usable power before THD they are about the same. The 11SR transformer is much more efficient.

    Have fun auditioning them both, you will enjoy them.

    Regards
     
  8. penacP

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    Okay, but I would like any explaination on what means :
    1200 VA Toroidal transformer...

    The A1SE has a huge transformer I guess (hidden in the round box at the center of the unit...

    I would like to understand why it is good, etc... :)

    Penac :clown:
     
  9. rnjones

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    I also have the A11SR and agree with StewartC. Great Amp. I have heard the A1SE which is also great. However the price £1800 vs £2500 +£500 and the minimal difference I will hear with my room/speakers/sources was enough for me. The fact that the A11SR has extra features currently was icing on the cake.

    To try to answer PenacPs question, you need to be an electronics engineer. Yikes, thats what I am, but its been a long time, I think I am a powerpoint engineer now :).

    Anyway 1200VA is the Volt amp rating of the transfomer. If you think about the A1SE it has 7 x 175 Watts (I think). Now Watts are calculated by Amps x Volts. so this = 1225 of total power at full bore (you would be deaf). THe amp needs 1200VA to drive the seven amps.


    An analogy is torque and BHP in a car engine. Watts per channel is like BHP and Torque is the VA rating of the engine the thing that gives it grunt.

    So an amp with a higher rated transformer should give you more grunt or an amp with more power in reserve.

    Hope this makes some sense. But nobody said engineers had to be able to express themselves.

    Rog
     
  10. stranger

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    mjones I would be grateful if you would answer a question thats been bugging me. how can the denon av1se put out 1225 watts when its total power consumption is only! 700 watts? thanks.
     
  11. stranger

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    sorry that should have read 720 watts total power consumption.
     
  12. thestorm

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    Tell me about the "hell of a lot more" bit!
    What does it have that the 11sr doesn't?
    And are those features of any use?

    U know the cost of the a1se\a1sr feels like a kick in the family jewels.
    I really can't see myself paying that much for a single unit,
    it's like having all u're eggs in one basket.

    I used to own a tag av32r,100x5r,cdt20r I sold it all without
    making a major loss! And purchased the a11sr. I'm soo much happier
    with this unit (for now). The cost of the 11sr is fair. I'm not sure
    wether it will have the generous "infinite" upgrade posibilities
    as the tag setup. But i'm very happy with the 11sr.
    It sounds soooo damn clear for stereo....a little flavoured
    compared to the tag but i always prefered my fish&chips with Salt
    and Vinegar. ;) And its scintillating for home cinema.


    I'll use the a11sr for about 1.5yrs to 3 (max) and then see which
    system is best. if it's a tag i'll get the tag...but i'll get something
    that is very flexible. btw i have penty of spare cash to spend on
    dvds and quality speakers.

    Cya,
    Shaz
     
  13. Jase D

    Jase D
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    Hi

    Thanks all for your replies, they have been very helpful.

    After weighing all things up i will either go for the A11SR or wait for the replacement to come out for the A1SE.

    I still have loads of laserdiscs which watch from time to time including the Star Wars Trilogy Special Edition so I will want an RF Modulator connection and it seems the replacement for the A1SE would be the obvious choice.

    Cheers

    jase
     
  14. Reiner

    Reiner
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    1200 VA Toroidal transformer...

    VA = Watt, i.e. a transformer which can provide 1200 Watt of power. Toroidal means round, they are more efficient than squarish transformers though suffer from higher current peaks when switched on (which can be supressed with some electronics).

    Since you also need some power for the pre-amp and processing stage there should be more power available than those calculated from the power amp stages only. Not much really (another 100 Watt I would estimate).
    If you check some amps which claim 5x150 Watt but have a total power consumption of e.g. 520 Watt only you will need to question if that can be correct. In fact it can't be correct and means though the amp can deliver 150 Watt (VA) to each channel he cannot do it simultaneously to all channels!
     
  15. stranger

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    thanks reiner this is what I thought the a1se gives a max. of 90 plus watts per chanel 7 chanels driven.
     
  16. Jase

    Jase
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  17. rnjones

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    Reiner, good point. I would have said exactly the same thing. You cant drive each channel amp at full bore as the input power does not allow for this. And yes the other parts of the system need power. As it is all low voltage stuff I would expect it to be less than 50W.

    And the link from Jase actually highlights another reason to go Region 2. We have 240V not 120V so x that by the current (13 amps) we can have a lot louder amps than our friends across the water :D :D :p
    Rog
    p.s 2.5 hours on the M25 has made me a bit .....
     
  18. johnson

    johnson
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    My old Sony 940 apparently delivered 5*110watts
    The max power consumption was about 290watts.
    Don't add up does it!
     
  19. dts_boy

    dts_boy
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    forget about all these numbers - its what you hear that counts! many manufacturers claim silly ratings, you just have to look at all these 1KW + mini systems to knwo that. IMHO its wether you think that the 1se is worth the extra money, musically it sounds better than the 11sr, but thats just my opinion:p
     
  20. Stuart M. Robinson

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  21. thestorm

    thestorm
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    Hi dts_boy!

    That's interesting....
    I found quite the opposite, I found that the 11sr was clearer and cleaner. The 1se was good but nothing special (considering how much it was). I didn't see the point in paying extra for it.
    However, the home cinema side of things were excellent.

    I'm not an expert on all this and I don't have "golden ears" but I found the 1se muddled especially in the mid-range, it might be typical for receivers or lower costing equipment. The high's were a little unclear and the bass was uneven or not as disciplined. So you can imagine how delighted I was with my purchase of the 11sr. I was smiling all the way home. Wow what a bloody bargain! I wouldn't have noticed these fine details if it wern't for the fact that i used to own a tag and then temporarily went to a NAD c370 integrated(scabby looking but excellent sounding amp).

    I beleive you own or used to own a Sony DB930? After hearing that receiver for stereo performance anything sounds musical!

    If you have not bought u're 1se yet, whislt demo'ing the 1se+upgrade, try the following as that's what i did,

    1. Prior to demo'ing, clear any ear wax! I did :D
    see attachment. I used this.

    2. Since your budget is at the critical point where you could go for either one unit or spearates. Demo Rotel, Arcam and TAG you will
    most definetly be impressed. Those are brands recommended by people I know that own them and from personal first hand experience. And they are better than the
    expensive 1se, the tag is a particular appealing package due to being so upgradable. They won't mess u around like denon, it is a little expensive compared to the 1se
    but in the long run ..like 2-3yrs it 'll work out cheaper, u could buy the processor (av32r) and a 2nd hand Rotel amps.
    That's something I'll considier when I have more money to spend on home cinema. And these other systems I mentioned are very musical too. I'drecommend a store demo and home dem if you can.
    I belevie Rayleigh Hifi do home demo's. It'llgive you plenty of time
    to be wow'ed.

    anyway... this post is dragging on a bit, and I've got "Saving Private Ryan" in the dvd player.....

    Cya,
    Shaz
     

    Attached Files:

  22. penacP

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    >I don't have "golden ears" but I found the 1se muddled especially in the mid-range, it might be typical for receivers or lower costing equipment. The high's were a little unclear and the bass was uneven or not as disciplined.<

    haha :) Sure you don't have "golden ears" !!! :D


    Penac :clown:
     
  23. thestorm

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    heheh well i guess it's just me... an amatuer becomng more
    experienced! I'm getting better! I ordered a Sound Level Meter
    it was a bargain at only £25quid postage included.

    cornwallelectronics.co.uk - sound level meter
     
  24. penacP

    penacP
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    >I ordered a Sound Level Meter<

    oooh very good !!! You will see that it's impossible to correctly adjust the levels just with ears :) You will notice a better wrapping sound effect when watching a DVD right now you can use your sond level meter :)

    Penac:clown:
     
  25. Reiner

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    Very interesting indeed! Cheers.


    On a further note: I agree that specs don't mean anything if the sound is not right, but would you buy a car if it says 150 bhp and then delivers 90 only? Well, it takes you from A to be, too, right?

    So if I get promised 150 Watts per channel I want that, and it should be simultaneously. Anything else is cheating (the nicest word I could come up with).

    Ghettoblasters and those dubious mini/midi systems are another issue, 1000 Watt (PMPO) from 6 AAA batteries is yet very impressive. :D
     
  26. greeny

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    You need to look at proper Hifi amps to get this. If you compair the Transformer/Capacitors etc on my Naim 135 power amps (75 watts into 1 channel) they are at least 2-3 times as big as those in my 3802 (7 *105 watts). Simply the power supply in the Naim is much more capable of providing current than that in the Denon, and the Denon is supposed to be able to drive 7 channels not just one.

    You will find ALL integrated AV amps are Speced in this way, (Denon are no worse than others). The rational is that relatively little comes from the back channels and rarely are all channels driven hard at the same time. Still the bigger the transformer and Capacitors the better.
     

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