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Denon AVC-11SR review (German)

Discussion in 'AV Receivers & Amplifiers' started by Reiner, Jan 22, 2002.

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  1. Reiner

    Reiner
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  2. Stewart C

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    I take it from the stars awarded it's a good review.

    Perhaps one of our german viewers would care to translate for us brits and reply in this post.

    Thanks
     
  3. JPC

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    I saw it reviewed in a British magazine while in my local paper shop yesturday...... fantastic review!! Maximum Stars for everything!!!....
    Sorry i cant tell you which magazine it was........ i have flu and all i wanted top do is get home to bed.......

    I DEFINATLY WANT ONE!!!!

    when im better!

    Its about £1,800 though see http://www.avland.co.uk/denon/avca11sr/
    Regards JOHN
     
  4. johnson

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    I think it was home cinema choice.As you say it got maximum scores for everything.
    Glad i bought one now.
    Incedently I read on a us forum that the processing power is 50% greater than an un-modified avc-a1se.(122mips v 88mips)
    (mips= million instructions per second)
    These a1 owners will have 200 mips when modified.
    Great sound though,really pleased.
     
  5. thestorm

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    U bet it is! ;)
    I got mine today.... i'm still setting it up.
    I had to call Denon a few times.
    Setting up my Tag wasn't as difficult as this. :rolleyes:

    I'll let u know soon.

    Cya,
    Shaz
     
  6. Stewart C

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    I have one too and it's brilliant.

    It's nice though to see your product getting good informed reviews. It lets everyone else know that it should go on their audition list.

    Had mine since release date and it gets better and better.

    Regards
     
  7. Reiner

    Reiner
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    It got a great review/rating in everything but I really don't want to translate all that.
    But you can use the following site to do this for you: http://www.babelfish.com/Translations.shtml

    Note that the amount of characters are limited, so instead of the weblink cut and paste paragraph by paragraph into the translator ...
     
  8. rnjones

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    I have had mine for a month now and it is really starting to bed in. Intial problems with Centre speaker config are fixed. Got round the strange multi room setup. Agree wit thestorm setup and manual are hard work.

    Watched a lot of films in DD and DTS. Absolutely great. CD from my Linn MimiK is very very good in pure direct mode. The ability to use the sub with music is great as my previous setup didnt allow this.

    DPL II is great for Sky TV.

    Home Cinema Choice gave it full marks. Glad I bought it even though I hadnt seen the reviews.

    Definately improving with use.

    It can also go very loud :)
    Rog
     
  9. Stewart C

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    What initial problems did you have with Centre Speaker configuration.

    I may be having some too but I don't want to influence your answer.

    Cheers
     
  10. rnjones

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    Hi Stewart, sorry if this answers isnt very scientific. My problem may be very subjective, but here goes.

    My setup is as follows
    AVC-A11SR
    Linn Mimik CD connected via analogue phonos.
    Sony 735 DVD connected via Coax and Scart
    Panasonic VCR (connected via Scart to TV)
    Panasonic Sky Box (connect via Phono to amp and scart to TV)
    Mission 75 series speakers (75C centre, FR, FL,all Bi wired at the speaker end RR, RL) Quality Silver coated cables cost loads cant recall the make.
    M& K sub
    Sony 36FS70 TV (connected via Scart(3) to Phono convertor for audio ito amp) Note standard phono output from Sony TV is variable and hence crap.
    All Sitting (including 90Kg TV!) on a proper audio quality stand

    Used Denon test tone to set all speakers up. Then used THX setup on R1 Terminator 2 disk to check .

    All seemed good. However with just about all sources centre speaker level was to low for my liking. So more tweaks of the centre speaker level.

    My basic problem (paranoia) was that the dialogue in particular was not as crisp and clear as I would like. This was often the case with TV/Sky broadcasts using DPL2 decoding. Less so with DD 5.1 and DTS. But in action films (my sort of film) I was still not happy with dialogue in louder scenes.


    Now this could be my advancing age (38 :( )and my ears giving out.

    Now one thing that seemed to improve it was applying THX processing particulalry to Analogue DPL2 sources. This really seemed to "fix" the dialogue better to the centre speaker.

    Even my beloved, who is much better with colours than sound agreed it helped.

    About Christmas time I used the T2 disk again and concentrated on the phase tests and decided I had connected the Centre speaker out of phase. Seemd to improve marginally.

    Then before new year I had to do a bit of reconfig and decided to re terminate the centre speaker cables with a lot more care. Re tweaked the levels again.


    Now I am about 90% happy with the centre speaker setup.

    However last night I watched the Criterion R1 Rock SE with DTS. Great film but Dialogue was still variable. Again applying THX improved this.


    So sorry about the essay but to sumarize.

    1. Dodgy initial cabling to centre speaker.
    2. Possibly Mission 75C is not that great a speaker
    3. THX seems to improve it, which makes me think point 2 is correct.
    4. Endless tweaking of the amp seems to make not a lot of difference.
    5. Syringe my ears :)


    I would like to say that apart from the "dense" manual and the above issue I am 100% happy with the amp. Watching the Rock, Phantom Menace, T2 etc is just awesome. Luckily I have a detached house and can really crank it up.


    Finally i would like to say that the big bonus in all of this is how great it sounds playing CDs. My Linn Mimik is a great deck. Connecting it to the Denon in pure direct mode is just amazing (compared to my old Arcam Delta 270). I know the 11SR isnt an audiophile amp but it is better than any other surround amp I have heard for Cd reproduction. So from that point I am 150% satisfied.


    I suppose the thing to do next is.... try out some other speakers. But I still have to pay for the Denon so it will be some time yet :(.


    If anyone is still awake after reading this and has any thoughts I will be very pleased to hear them.

    Cheers Rog
     
  11. Tino D'Voe

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    Does anyone know if the avc10 and avc11 equivalent to north america's 5800/5803?
     
  12. johnson

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    The avc11 is the 4802 without a tuner.I think.

    Rog,might seem like a dumb question,But did you set your test tones up by ear?

    The reason I ask is I done this with my a11 and my center seemed,well not quite there.

    I then bought an spl meter and although the test tones sounded equal by ear the center was about 1.5 db down on the front right and left.

    After re-adjustment it sounds perfect.

    Also my surrounds were wrong by ear and my sub was too high.

    My speakers are all from the same manufacturer.

    Regards
    Simon
     
  13. Stewart C

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    That is the same problem I am having.

    What can it be.

    Although my DPLII is fine the dialogue is set the same as other speakers and is clear and consise.

    When I play DD5.1 or DTS the dialogue is very muted especially during very loud sequences.

    I have upped the centre channel by 2dbs which is now set to 77dbs and the rest is 75. It is better but I shouldn't have to do this.

    What do you think then ?

    Regards
     
  14. rnjones

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    Simon thanks for the info, I think I am going to have to invest in a sound pressue meter. I need to look through the forums for recomendations.

    Its interesting that three of us, Simon, Stewart and me are having the same issue. When I get a moment I might Email Denon to ask. However this wont be until next weekend as I have got a busy week work wise.

    If I get any answers I will post it up here as soon as possible.

    Yes I think the AVC-A11SR is the 4802 without the tuner.

    Cheers Rog
     
  15. thestorm

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    Hi Rog

    I haven't got round to setting up my 11sr yet.
    I'll be getting a sound pressure meter and doing it all in one go
    properly. I'm still recovering from the stress and trauma of connecting it up and putting it onto my Sound Style AV rack.
    Although I did quickly\roughly set it up according to number of
    speakers, large\small etc.
    I'm enjoying the stereo performance a lot. It's really great.

    But maybe you guys might wanna have a read of this as a helpful
    hint.

    "Shazib
    A point to note while I remember; when I reviewed the AVC-A11SR for 'Home Cinema Choice' (to appear shortly) I noticed that the Denon exhibits an unusual trait for a THX product. Once all channels are set to output 75dB SPL using the internal noise, external noise sources should also produce 75dB when the master volume is at '00dB' (reference level), but the Denon turned out to be almost 20dB out of whack. Although this is of little importance in relative terms, it does mean that one shouldn't equate the '00dB' point to reference level, it's way too loud, important if you use an external calibration disc at some point.

    Stuart."

    Source : http://www.smr-forums.com (SPL meter (in London UK))

    Cya,
    Shaz
     
  16. johnson

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    I must admit,I didn't think there was a problem with the Denon.I assumed it to be different sensitivities of the mains and center.
    Although all the same make and model,the cnter was91db and the left and right 89db.
    So naturally the would output different "noise levels"
    Since I upgraded my center,the new one is 88db,and that's why I've had to up the level to the center.
    One other interesting point,is that my surrounds were way too loud.
    This also added to the problems hearing the center.
    Now it's all balanced with the spl,movies and music(the sub was too loud particularly for music) are much better.
    Regards
     
  17. Hoglet

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  18. Stewart C

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    I have e-mailed Denon and asked them to check out this post. When they reply to me I'll let you all know.

    It's definately not right, and the comment about the '00' db not being reference I don't think is relevant to this problem, but you never know.

    What I can say that I have found slightly strange is that when setting up my speakers to 75db's the centre speaker has been reduced by 4 db's to get the 75'db level over and above the levels obtained from the other speakers. The front left and right are sitting at 00 dbs. Remember though I have upped the centre by 2db's to try and compensate for this quietness from the centre channel.

    Now my speaker cables for the front channels are all exactly the same lengths and the same cable and although the centre is slightly closer to the listening position than the front left and right I wouldn't have thought by 4db's.

    My centre speaker sits on top of my TV and my left and right are ever so slightly back from this.

    Maybe there is a slight problem with the tone generator for the centre channel. I haven't a clue basically why this is happening.

    Regards
     
  19. Stewart C

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    Got reply from Denon stating that they will check it out but they have no reported problems. Not that that is surprising considering it would have been fixed before shipping.

    Is this something I am gonna have to live with, if the experts can't find anything ?

    Regards
     
  20. rnjones

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    Stewart, fast work, look forward to the reply from Denon. I have thought about my cables FL & FR are the same length but centre is much shorter. But if anything this would lower attenuation and make it louder.

    The tone generator is a possible but I have also used the THX setup on my Terminator 2 R1 disk and I dont recall changing any levels after using it. DVD is connected via CoaX.


    Its pay day tommorrow so maybe the sound pressure meter is on the horizon.

    Cheers Rog
     
  21. Stewart C

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    Just tried to hook another sub in to my 11SR for 2 in total. I thought my THX amp would have two outputs but there is no mention in the manual.

    Looks like I need a crappy Y connector to get both running.

    Very high quality link I don't think !!

    I thought 2 subs was the THX specification.

    Regards
     
  22. Stuart M. Robinson

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    Guys,

    A point to note: Don’t use the THX Optimode calibration routines on any disc other than ‘Fight Club’ since their levels are incorrect. This is why THX re-launched the scheme as THX Optimizer. See the following URL for more:

    http://www.smr-home-theatre.org/optimode/

    Always use an SPL meter when calibrating, and when the Denon I’d suggest an accurate source of external noise such as the ‘Ultimate DVD: Platinum’ or one of Dolby’s own professional discs (if you can find one). Also check that you don’t have any dynamic range limitation enabled.


    Stuart M. Robinson
    SMR Group – http://www.smr-group.co.uk/
     
  23. Stewart C

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    Thanks Stuart. Nice to know your looking at the HCC forums now an again. What a job you have got!!

    I take it from your review of the 11SR that you never found any irregularities on the centre channel.

    Also, I have found a certain degree of noise in the video circuitry. Why didn't you test this part of the amp when reviewing? I do not use it now and directly connect sources to the TV.

    As far as I am aware the bandwidth is not as much as it should be for video throughput.

    Does the THX set up work on Fight Club R1 and R2

    Regards
     
  24. rnjones

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    Stuart thanks, the article was very helpfull. I will stop using my good old T2 disk for setup.

    Now its time for the SPL meter and the Ultimate DVD.

    These forums are bloomin' marvelous.
    Cheers Rog
     
  25. Stuart M. Robinson

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    Stewart,

    “I take it from your review of the 11SR that you never found any irregularities on the centre channel.”

    No I didn’t, and this is an area I pay particular attention to since there are so many receivers with inaccurate output levels, either across formats (different Dolby Digital, MPEG and/or DTS LFE performance) or across modes. All the stuff I review these days goes through acoustic output testing using a range of discs, including Dolby and DTS’ own.

    “Also, I have found a certain degree of noise in the video circuitry. Why didn't you test this part of the amp when reviewing? I do not use it now and directly connect sources to the TV. ”

    The differences in video pass-through performance between receivers, beyond the objective “can it convert composite to Y/C or vice versa?” is usually very slight, so we leave this type of evaluation to Martin Pipe in the HCC lab. The test equipment there can measure performance with far greater accuracy and reliability than the average reviewer, many of whom don’t even have progressive or component-capable displays.

    “Does the THX set up work on Fight Club R1 and R2”

    Just region 1. It was the first Optimode disc and the only one they managed to get right. It’s best to forget Optimode altogether and use either Optimizer or another third-party disc.

    By-the-way, reviewing gear isn’t always fun and games. I’ll be unpacking and wiring up my one-millionth receiver later. On the other hand, I did manage to get hold of the Pioneer DV-747A today, and that should provide some entertainment…


    Stuart M. Robinson
    SMR Group – http://www.smr-group.co.uk/
     
  26. Couch Potato

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    Stuart,

    If you're getting bored I could always "pop" over and help, I'm only in Tarporley, 6 miles as the crow flies!! :devil: :clown: :p

    Steve :D
     
  27. sbonell

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    Borrowed an AVC 11SR to try out over the weekend. Overall I was very impressed. I've been struggling to get something which will work well with my Dynaudios and be good (shut your eyes and listen in the dark good) on music.

    The AVC 11SR was a big improvement. Without doing a back to back test against the 3802 I'd tried before on films, I'm not sure how to rate the DD and DTS - it just sounded great and was good enough for me by miles. I will say, that like the Prologic II on the 3802, I think this is a very strong reason to buy the amp. on its own. Being able to watch any run of the mill film on TV and getting really good sound is a massive bonus just because of how much you'll get to use this feature.

    Can't say I had any problems setting up centre. I used an SPL meter and the Denon test tone and it seemed fine.

    The quirk of the subject line is to do with imaging on CD playback. I tried a back to back test switching between the coaxial digital output from my DVD player (playing a CD) and the analogue (phone) outputs. Using a test disc which has someone simply speaking right in the centre of the soundstage, this was fine on the analogue outputs but the imaging fell apart (i.e. I heard both speakers rather than a single image in the middle) when I switched to the digital connection.

    Anyone else notice the same?

    Otherwise on music this amp. sounded very very good. Its detailed, airy, powerful and I listened for ages really enjoying it. Some traces of treble harshness on some tracks, but I suspect this could be my speakers as much as anything or just the fact that the whole setup is revealing less than perfect recordings.

    Personally I'm going just try a two box amp setup to put my mind at ease (to see whether the extra current is better for my Dyns), but otherwise I think the 11SR is for me! Even if a more powerful setup sounds a bit better, I think Prologic II could swing it!
     
  28. Hoglet

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    I've just tried the same thing with an old HiFi News and Record Review test disk that contains stereo and ambisonic walkrounds.

    I would say the imaging using the digital input was actually slightly better than when using the analogue input. Not much in it though. Certainly when the sound was "centre front" it appeared to be coming from a single point between the speakers in both cases. My CD player is an old Meridion 207.

    I'm sure you've checked this already, but are your speakers wired in phase? Anyway, this wouldn't explain why you hear a difference between analogue and digital inputs.

    --- Dave
     
  29. johnson

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    Just to re-iterate.(spelling?)

    Since setting my avc11 with an SPL,my center is perfect.

    No problems at all.Easily better than my last receiver.

    I also used ultimate platinum test tones to see if they were any different to the amp's test tones.They were the same.

    I currently have no issues with the amp.

    As I stated before my center (B&W HTM2) has different sensitivety to the other speakers,so it will output a different level when fed the same(uncompensated with spl)signal.

    Regards
     
  30. Stewart C

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    Thanks for your input guys it is really appreciated and in particular to Stuart M Robinson, not that you are any more important than anyone else you understand, but it must be said that it's very refreshing to be able to contact someone who reviews and publishes their results in commercially available magazines. These reviews mean alot to all of us who spend our hgard earned (maybe ) cash on these things and to point us all in the right direction.

    Secondly guys again thanks for the input with the centre speaker. Just to reiterate it has nothing to do with the test tones they are set up perfectly but what I and one of my fellow 11SR collegues is experiencing is quiet dialogue during a film even though all channels have been set up using an SPL Meter. Almost to the point of straining to hear the dialogue particularly in busy scenes.

    I never had this problem before with my old Yamaha 795 DD/DTS receiver, so it's not my centre speaker.

    Thanks again.
     

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