Denon A11 pic probs

rdt123

Active Member
Hi,

I have a denon A11 fed into a Panny 42" PW5 by component.

I am having major problems with the picture which isn't even in the same league as my former player, a DV88+.

Problems include blocky blacks on many discs and tonight watching ice age i noticed horizontal lines through the picture on scenes with lots of sky, blotchy colours and the same blockiness on colours.

If this makes sense the blotchy colours were most evident when e.g. the rhino's are right up to the camera.

I am seriously concernd by this as the only time i have seen this before on my plasma was from a dirt cheap JVC player.

Any comments most welcome
 

p.booth

Well-known Member
I have a11 fed into Pioneer plasma 433 mxe by component and no problems. Also fed into sony pj 12 ht via component also no problems.
 

MovieAddict

Active Member
This sounds like the Macro-Blocking bug explained in great detail on www.avsforum.com under DVD Players. In the US the Denon DVD A11 is called the Denon 5900.

Don't know about the blotchy colours though.

Are you using the standard picture settings or a custom setting?
Has the problem only just started occuring?
Does it happen on all disks that you play?
 
S

Spero D.

Guest
The problem you have is known as Macroblocking. There apparently is a firmware fix being worked on for the DVD-5900 so hopefully that will filter through to the DVD-A11. The firmware fix will also solve the slow menu loading problem. However please report the problem to the Denon importers in the UK so they can pass the details onto Japan which will hopefully release a firmware fix for the A11.
 

gandley

Novice Member
well all of the above are right in saying its macroblocking, which you may or may not know is related to the faroudja chipset having its noise reduction set to max in firmware.

BUT

those with panasonic plasmas see the issue much worse than others due to the fact that its enhanced by the panasonics own pic noise circuitry that cant be toogled either. so its NR`ed and then NR`ed again


however if its macroblocking set your dvd player to interlaced and see if the problems disapear. This will happen as you no longer use the faroudja chipset in interlaced mode only progressive.


set the denon to interlaced and then run it through your iscan ultra. horizontal lines you see i dont think is player related as i see these on my pany at times with my tosh 9500.
but dont see them on my PJ with the A11

the new firmware is due shortly, it also fixes the i-link
 

rdt123

Active Member
Well, I have turned off prog scan and they don't disappear completely but there is some improvement. I could accept it being the plasma except i never saw any of these artifacts at all with my dv88+. Whatever the reason i have changed a £1000 player for a £1600 player and ended up with a worse image!
 

gandley

Novice Member
if its still there than u have a faulty unit. as it cant be macroblocking. this is only a faroudja issue

My A11 is far better than my tosh 9500, and better than an arcam 27a, let alone your unit.


one thing is too mention, the A11 is so sharpe it is known to show the on disc errors more, and this is realy no joke.
If you can just about see an encoding artifact with one dvd player,
then you will see it with the A11 in greater detail. sad but true.


Its also been said the A11 demands a plasma to be calibrated for best results due to this increased sharpness. but i cant realy comment on that.. All i can say is my pw5 plasma didnt do my A11 justice. but i didnt see any blotching of colour.

the image looks like its been played at a higher res than my other player(which it isnt) due to the extra detail and sharpness.

when i demoed the A11 it was alongside a denon A1, Arcam 27a and my tosh 9500e which i took to the demo as reference.

needless to say which i found better by what i now own
 

rdt123

Active Member
Thanks for that, i've done some tests:

Running by component into plasma. THX setup on monsters inc. THX logo for brightness. The shades of grey around the border were showing macroblocking. Kind of looked like the lights on close encounters, moving around in blocks of different shades.

On interlaced mode, much fainter and probably three quarter less blocks.

Monsters inc, scene with sullis wake up call, all grey areas crawling with blocks, again far less in interlaced.

Running in interlaced through the iscan: Far, far less noticable, in fact really had to look.

contacted av-land as i think its a faulty unit. i wonder how they will respond. Any thoughts

Rob
 

Daftboy

Novice Member
I demoed this unit with my projector and found the same problem using DVI.
I noticed in this months what hi-fi mag, the reviewer complains about this problem when testing projectors, and he mentioned that it only affects a few units.
I decided to purchase the Samsung 935, and none of the problems were visible.

When I phoned Denon, they said it was a fault with my projector.

I have to believe it was a setting problem or fault on the Denon, but as they wouldn't offer any solution, I decided to purchase the much cheaper Samsung.
Only bonus out of it was I was able to get the Yamaha amp and DVD recorder with the money saved.
 

gandley

Novice Member
Well some projectors that use the same faroudja chipset, have the same problem!!!.and can produce this effect with any dvd player.

but in there setting the user can toggle the amount of NR used.
put it to max and voila..macroblocking, turn to 0=min and issue all gone.

it was kriss deerings who discovered it was faroudja related after he was testing/playing with some makes of PJs

also you need to realize that the artifacts ARE ALREADY ON THE DISC its part of the encoding, its just the A11 being as sharpe as it is , picks them up in clarity when some dvd players will blur it. Add then the NR of the faroudja and there you go.


take that same disc play it on your computer screen and low and behold you may just about see those artifacts that you never realy noticed before till the A11 showed you exactly where they are. Welcome to the limitations of DVD

Denon Uk do seem abit in the dark or are just closing ranks.
however denon USA and japan have reconized the issue(denon japan engineers were reluctant to admit they missed it, humble pie and all that but have now come clean)
the fix is due in the USA, JAPAN any moment.

Rob good luck with Denon or Av-land, kingsley was a great help but i think his hands are tied by denon. youll see
 

gandley

Novice Member
HEHE, just thopught if your machine is MR and depemding on the firmware you have your about to be introduced to mr subtitle popup, also see if your machine defaults to using subtitles on some discs.(if i use the latest R2 firmware all these issues dissapear.)

if you have a copy of R1 matrix reloaded, thats a good disc to check for subtitles(even when you select all subtitles off in settings on dvd player and menus they will still play)


Plz post your firmware version for comparison

Dont use remote for this.

turn unit off with power button on player, press and hold PLAY and OPEN/CLOSE simultaneously. turn power on keep buttons depressed till you see ll> appear on the display. release buttons

use PUSH/ENTER button to toggle each firmware listng

ie;
ESS
MAke of day
system
drv
dsp
 

laurie

Standard Member
gandley
Do you think from your experience that models comming from the factory would have these problems fixed! I have noticed NO ONE over at the Avforums have asked for serial numbers like they did for the 3800 when it had the disc skipping/heating problem
cheers laurie
 

gandley

Novice Member
yes, i think thats been happening, some models now released have dvi fixed (i dont mean enabled) out of the box so you dont get the signal dropout people get due to the HDCP protection, but this is very recent. i would estimate in 2mths all units reaching consumers will be fixed unless it was old stock.

but in the case of the 3800 it was a hardware issue not just firmware as is the A11

it seems are usa buddies now get firmware with an ESS No. of 6334-6 as opposed to our latest 6334-2
 

rdt123

Active Member
Av-land say they'll swap it out next week, great service, if i still get these isuues i will wait for the firmware. Gandley, do you really think that changing the firmware will see these problems disappear?.

Rob
 

rdt123

Active Member
Well,

I have seen matrix reloaded today and the picture was stunning with no problems so maybe it is this error and not another fault.

Will look at more discs and post finding later
 

gandley

Novice Member
when av-land agreed to swop out was it with your unit been tested first?

Yes the fimware will fix the issue. Kris has said denon japan claim to fixed the issue 90% so far but are confident of a 100% result.

attack of the clones is a good disc to try, the image of that is awsome.

Also please post your firmware for comparison
 

rdt123

Active Member
Gandley

I'll post my findings with AOTC and my firmware later

cheers
 

rdt123

Active Member
Hi Gandley,

Heres the firmware detail. I tried AOTC. Just one bit - chancellors meeting at start. Behind the jedi end of seat is grey, looks a bit blocky. Also chancellor asks yoda if it will come to war. while he is answering look at the wall in the gap between windoo and the bloke with the big head. On mine this is very discoloured, exactly like the usual suspects image you posted at AVS

ESS 63341
MAKEDAY 1015
DRV 630825
SYSTEM 6542-1
DSP1 6332
DSP2 6333

Rob
 

rdt123

Active Member
BTW, i'm holding out for the firmware before i swap it. Kingsley has been awesome. He's gonna send me an email saying he'll swap out the player if the firmware doesn't solve my probs
 

gandley

Novice Member
Thanks m8, thats good of kingsley, very similar to what hes doin for me, ok AOTC, those discolourations (is that a word?)
is not A11 related, if u look at the red wall u see green kind of areas,tiny blocks, yes? Those artifact are there on my pc as well. just not quite as vivid.

again the image i posted on avs of the usual suspects, i can see it on my PC as well, and with my old toshiba, and my parents pioneer 737.

its just in my case i had never seen an image at 7-8ft with it on, which realy makes it noticable. i changed dvd player and went to a PJ at the same time., but then rigging up older dvd player the artifacts were still there just not quite so visible as the A11.


if you still have your older dvd player, compare back you may be suprised to find quite a bit of it still there, just you never notice
 

rdt123

Active Member
Gandley,

Is my firmware the same verison as yous? Kingsley said he did have a later version but it wasn't MR.

Oh and yes its a word lol

BTW how does a good projectors image ompare to plasma? I was thinking of buying one but i saw a demo of the screenplay 4800 and i have to say was not impressed at all. The image didn't have the shine of a screen if that makes sense, seemed dull and grainy.

cheers
 

rdt123

Active Member
BTW Gandley

thanks for the reply over on AVS, if you feel i would benefit from the upgrade of firmware i would love a copy
 

gandley

Novice Member
my MR firmware is same as yours but i also have the later R2, which i think does tame the issue a little. the Mr firmware is buggy so dont be supprised if you get a subtitle pop up from nowhere etc.


PJ wise, i can understand the 4800 looking off, not impressed one bit with that one, mind you it is a low res.
Try somthing like the domino20 and youll find it hard to go back to plasma, image it produces is sensational.

like anything, one must choose wisely


Do you have a cd burner?
 

laurie

Standard Member
gandley

With the news over at the USA forums about Denon's attitude with the A11 of no future firmware upgrades in your opinion would you have still got your A11 if you knew of the video problem prior to your purchase I hope its not an unfair question to ask of you[and you have been VERY helpful] as I'm now more confused as to get one or not
cheers laurie
 

gandley

Novice Member
at the end of the day the macroblocking issue is limited to certain DVDs, The A11s progressive image is stunning, but it must be said is not suited to some displays.

As always you must demo if you plan to spend alot of money on a dvd player.(if you can).

I think if you have a panasonic Plasma then caution is advised if you plan to buy an A11. as this combo seems to give worst results due to 2 lots of NR being applied to the image.

It realy depends on the extent Denon have tamed the macroblocking issue. from what i gather its tamed by about 75% so i think this would make a significant reduction to make it all but invisible. But with out the new firmware to compare i cant say for sure.

would i have still got one? I think so yes. 80% of the time the image is just plain awesome. but can you live with the 20% of badly encoded dvds that cause some macroblocking issues.?
I could, and if they were fixed just 50% it would be worth it.

the choice is yours. or you could get saving like me for an X1;)
 

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