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Denon 3802: ''LFE'', or ''LFE+Mains''

Discussion in 'AV Receivers & Amplifiers' started by dAvE6, Jul 12, 2002.

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  1. dAvE6

    dAvE6
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    I have my front and centre speakers set to large, and my 2 surround speakers set to small. The subwoofer is set to ''yes'' with a crossover of 80hz. My speakers are B&W 603, LCR600 and 601. Room size iz 4X4 metre.

    So my questions is, so i use just LFE or LFE and mains? At tehe moment i have it set to the latter out of ignorance, and even with the sub volume(rel q200) pretty low, it's outputting a lot of bass relative to the overall sound in the room with music and movies.

    I'm pretty clueless about all this sub stuff. Would it even be better to be set on small? Well, let me know the best combination.

    Thanks.
     
  2. Jase

    Jase
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    Hi

    Have you connected the sub via both the High & Low level connections? If not, it´s well worth doing as you´ll get the optimum performance for both music & movies.

    Try this:

    Set all speakers to small, all bass to sub. Set the sub to mode 2 or 4 (this bypasses the crossover at the low level phono input as the amp is setting the cutoff, 80hz). Then its a case of balancing all the levels to 75db inc.sub.The sub you might want to set a bit higher 78db or so.

    For music if you listen in Direct mode the amp sends full range signals to the front pair of speakers regardless of your speaker settings. This is where the High Level (Neutrik) connector comes in to play, you would need to set the crossover of the sub (still leave it in mode 2 or 4) to around the lowest frequency your main pair of speakers go down to. eg. 50hz. then go into the Mode select on the amp, channel level and turn down the SW channel to -12db and then OFF. This stops any bass doubling and turns off the low level sub output of the amp for Direct mode. Then just set the High Level volume on the sub to where you think sounds best to you.

    As said this gives you optimum performance for both movies and music.:)
     
  3. juboy

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    Jase: a quick question for you if you'd be so kind:

    I have a Denon 2802 powering Kef Q55.2, Q95c + Q15.2 and a second Q95c (rear). My sub is a Rel Q150.

    The amp is set to LFE only and cross-over at 80hz, all speakers set to small.

    I have used both Avia and Video Essentials to set up my system in conjunction with an SPL meter.

    Now, my problem is that with the speakers all set to 75db at 0, the system sounds excellent... but turning the sub up to 75db makes it totally unlistenable as the sub just dominates everything and shakes the room to the point of concern.

    Any suggestions as to why this might be? As a compromise I've turned the sub down to about 50db at 0. This sounds about right to me and seems to be consistent with the test recommendations on Avia.

    Thanks.
     
  4. Jase

    Jase
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    juboy

    Is the sub placed in or near a corner by any chance?? As that can boost certain frequencies despite getting a reading of 75db with the test tones. Also worth switching the phase and see what differences you get.

    Just a note if you use Video Essential then balance to 75db but for AVIA (if 0db on the volume level is your starting point) balance to 85db.
     
  5. juboy

    juboy
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    I have changed the phase setting to '2' on the Rel dial, which did make things more sensible.

    The sub is not in a corner per se, my room has a chimney stack which comes from the basement room below into the living room and so the sub does have one side up against that, and the other against the side wall but it's not really a corner as the sub sticks out further than the chimney stack.

    I have a problem in that there's really nowhere else sensible to put it.

    I think I may have to get the SPL out again and do some playing!
    Thanks for your help.
     
  6. dAvE6

    dAvE6
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    Um, thanks Jase. (still baffled) :)

    So i'll set the speakers to small, set the sub to LFE only. Set the sub phase switch to position 2, and the crossover on the amp setup to 80hz.

    What i don't understand, is how to adjust all levels to 75DB. On the test tone screen? I thought you could only adjust from -12db to +12db.

    Another problem, is that i've never worked out how to connect the high level cable thingy from the sub to the amp.

    And if the high level thing is NOT connected, is having the speakers set to small and LFE-only still a better way to listen to music than having them as large/sub+mains?? See, i don't know if i can be arsed to connect the high level cable. Will it really improve music? Sorry about all the questions :(
     
  7. juboy

    juboy
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    "What i don't understand, is how to adjust all levels to 75DB."

    You can only really do this with the use of a Sound Level Pressure meter, either analogue or digital. I borrow my mate's analogue Radio Shack one and it seems to work well. It does make a difference, it's surprising how 'wrong' your own ears can be!

    I don't connect the High input on my Rel, just the Low one. Then again, I don't use it for music listening.
     
  8. Jase

    Jase
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    Hi

    As juboy has mentioned, you need a sound level meter to balance all the channels to 75db.

    If you dont want to bother with the High Level connection (its quite easy, just connect to the speaker terminals on the amp and then plug in the socket to the sub) then just use the low level phono and listen in Stereo mode, if all speakers are set to small.

    The other alternative is set the front pair to Large, rest to small, bass to LFE&MAIN and then use mode 1 or 3 on the sub and adjust the sub crossover so it blends well with your main speakers.

    Its a case of which one sounds best to you. Its certainly worth purchasing a sound meter as its the only way to accurately balance the channel levels, unless you have brilliant hearing!!
     
  9. Jase

    Jase
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    With regards to setting all the levels to 75db. You would go into the main setup menu and to Channel Level, start the test tone, get your meter and set to C-Weighting, Slow, and the range at 70 (if you get a meter you´ll see what this means!!) and then use the "fuel gauges" -12db to +12db to set the level until the sound meter reads 75db, then repeat for all channels.

    Initially you can do it by ear, but normally the levels would be out when compared with sound meter readings (unless you´re jammy!).
     
  10. juboy

    juboy
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    It does surprise me that as the Radio Shack SPL meter is all but purpose designed/priced pointed as a Home Theatre set-up tool that they don't put a 75db mark on there rather than having to use 70db +5 or 80db -5.
     
  11. Jase

    Jase
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    I use the digital one which just shows whatever db reading, 74, 75 etc etc. Still got the same range selector though.
     
  12. dAvE6

    dAvE6
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    Thanks for those replies jase. I'm guessing that when the high level cable is connected when listening to music, you turn the low-level volume on the sub to zero(as this is just for movies?).

    I have another query: Most of my use of the amp is in playing games in pro logic 2, and watching analogue tv in pro logic 2. So, is it STILL best to have the speakers set to small and LFE only? But here is where i'm really confused-- Would i be using the low level input sound with 80hz crossover, or the high level music mode?! Bassicly, i want the richest sound possible. I'm worried setting them to small makes them sound thin and shrill.

    Cheers.
     
  13. Jase

    Jase
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    The Rel has two seperate volume controls, one for low level the other for high level. Once the low level is set, you just leave it alone and then sort out the high level volume.

    What´s important is the MODE switch. Mode 1 uses the crossover at low level, Mode 3 does as well but is reverse phase. Mode 2 ignores it a low level and Mode 4 is the same but again its reverse phase. The sub crossover affects high level no matter what mode the sub is in.

    Setting all speakers to small, bass to sub will give you good results for Pro-Logic 2, DVD´s etc. This is via the low level connection, mode 2 or 4 on the sub and with your crossover set at 80hz on the amp.

    If you had the high level as well, you would listen in DIRECT mode (turn the SW level to OFF via the mode select, channel level on the front of the amp). Only in DIRECT mode would the high level connection come into use.

    In normal STEREO mode the amp puts the signal thru bass management (speakers small/large etc) and sends bass below 80hz to the sub using the low level.

    It all depends on whether you have both connected and which mode you listen to. Once set though, you wont have to touch anything on the sub at all, just select PL2, DIRECT, STEREO on the amp and it will send the various signals to the right speakers.

    At first it seems complicated but once done, its great, no faffing about changing settings or anything.

    Setting speakers to small wont make them sound shrill as the sub is producing the bass from the cutoff point and downwards its not losing anything anywhere.
     
  14. dAvE6

    dAvE6
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    Thanks Jase, thats' a great deal of help. When you say nothing is lost from setting to small as the sub does everything: Well, there is still bass coming from my speakers, Hence, the sub isn't doing ALL the bass. Isn't it important for at least SOME bass to come from the speakers? Otherwise, surely they would sound thin etc.
     
  15. Jase

    Jase
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    Yes, the speakers still produce some bass. Thats the beauty of the Rel and its modes (2 & 4) it just produces the bass thats sent to it from the amp. i.e 80hz and downwards, the amp routes the bass above 80hz to the other speakers.

    Initially I would try the all speakers to small, bass to sub, using mode 2, play with mode 4 as well see if you prefer the sound.

    If you don´t like the above, try setting the front pair to large, others to small, bass to LFE & MAIN and the sub set to mode 1 or 3. You´ll have to adjust the crossover on the sub to blend with your fronts though.

    Depending on which of the above settings you like, will depend if you need to connect at High Level as well. If you prefer the first option then you can go on to connect & setup the high level. However, if you prefer the 2nd option (bit like a game show this, which door, number one or number two:D ) then you won´t need to bother with the High Level.
     
  16. coolhand101

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  17. DodgeTheViper

    DodgeTheViper
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    When setting your speaker levels to 75db at 0db with a SPL meter, does this mean ( i have a Denon 3802 ) that you set the master volume to 0db before you press the setup key on the remote ?


    Cheers
    Kev
     
  18. petrolhead

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    Thanks again Jase for your PM. I have set mine up this way and It sounds better for me :)

    BUT slight differnece. I an now using my old PDR10 at the rear connected to the high level from the surround speakers. I also have to set the surround speakers to large so that I could get the full signal to the sub. Both myself and 7thguest (Thanks for your ears :)) this there was a improvement and even more depth but not overpowering.

    I call this the 'petrolhead' theory :D
     
  19. bob007

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    If you are using the amps test tones the volume defaults to 0db, no need to set the master volume.

    If you are using a test disc then you have to set the volume to 0db manually.
     
  20. Jase

    Jase
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