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Denon 3802 - DTS ES Advice Please

Discussion in 'AV Receivers & Amplifiers' started by soni, Jan 26, 2005.

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  1. soni

    soni
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    Hi Guys, i've had the AVR 3802 for a couple of years now, but havn't really explored with it much as i've allways selected Dolby Digital 5.1 output. However, i've just purchased the Tosh DLP, and have been playing with the amp and reading the instruction manual a bit more (not that it makes much sense) and have stumbled accross DTS ES. Can somebody tell me the following please:-

    Which is better, 5.1, DTS, or ES?

    I've got KEF Eggs, and bought a couple more so that i can have 7:1 - FSL, CTR, FSR, SL. SR, RSL, and RSR speakers, along with a sub.

    I've also just bought the Denon 2910 DVD player to work with the new Tosh DLP, and i understand it only has Dolby Digital 5.1 and DTS output, so therefore does that mean i can't get ES? Also, would i need a DVD disc recorded in ES? I understand that there is matrixed ES, but i'm not sure what that really is. What is the best, 5.1, DTS, ES - Discrete or ES Matrixed?

    Any help would be grateful as i've spent a bit on the speakers and system etc, and would like to get the best out of it - Denon don't exactly write in plain ENGLISH!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And the DVD player instructions are even worse!!!
     
  2. Jase

    Jase
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    Only you can decide which format is best by listening to it. The age old discussion about which is better usually ends up in an argument.

    A DVD player will send whatever format the disc is encoded in onto your amp. It's down to the amp to do the decoding. In your case everything is fine as your amp can decode Dolby, DTS, DTS-ES Discrete etc. To be able to use DTS-ES Discrete decoding the dvd disc must be encoded in that format. If the disc is standard DTS then you can choose either straight DTS decoding or choose to use DTS-ES Matrix and bring the Surround Back speakers into play. This is the same for Dolby, you can use either straight decoding or Dolby EX.

    Personally I rather like DTS-ES Discrete but a LOT will depend on the actual sound mix. Something like Lord of the Rings Trilogy Extended Editions sound fantastic but Highlander the Immortal Edition is diabolical. Same format but two complete opposites in terms of sound quality and mixing.

    DTS-ES Matrix and Dolby EX both use matrix processing to generate the sound for the Surround Back speakers. They're different to DTS-ES Discrete, which as it's name suggests, is fully discrete.

    Some discs are recorded in Dolby EX but you don't need a disc encoded in this format to be able to use Dolby EX processing. You can apply it to any Dolby 5.1 track. Same goes for DTS and DTS-ES Matrix. However, as I said earlier, to use DTS-ES Discrete the disc must be encoded in that format.
     
  3. soni

    soni
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    Thanks for your reply Jase, i'm a bit thick when it comes to all this AV stuff, so would like to ask one more question.

    Correct me if i'm wrong, but are you saying that it doesn't matter that my DVD player (Denon 2910) cannot output DTS ES, as my Denon 3802 Amp is capable of playing ES Discrete so will output it in Discrete so long as the disc is recorded in ES Discrete? Hope i havn't confused matters with that!

    I just find it strange if what you are saying is that the 2910 can pass all of the audio recorded on a disc onto an Amp (i.e., ES in this case) if it can't actually read ES, cause in theory if this is the case, then any old DVD player will do so long as you've got a decent amp to output all the different sound modes!????

    Or are you saying that the amp will turn 5.1 Dolby and DTS into the closest ES that it can i.e., a matrixed version of ES, and thats the closest i can get to the real ES Discrete?

    Am i right in assuming that ES Matrixed is not as good as ES Discrete?

    IF i can play ES Discrete with my set-up i.e., Denon 3802 Amp and Denon 2910 DVD player, what DVD titles are there available that play pure Discrete?

    P.S. Would also be grateful if somebody could tell me the difference between these different sound modes. I think i allready know about 5.1, its 5 independent channels of audio, like bullets being shot out of one, and helicopter out of another, and so forth, but don't seem to understand the difference with the others. Is it just that it uses the rear speakers in a 7:1 set-up, as when i output 5.1, i still get sound output from my rear speakers!

    I know i'm hard work! :suicide:
     
  4. The Gooner

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    Someone might explain it better but here goes

    If a DVD player can read DTS then it CAN read DTS ES, it sends the stream to the amp and the amp decodes it accordingly, so yes a cheap player capable of reading DTS (and most do) will paly DTS ES through the right amp.

    DTS ES discrete is 6.1 i.e 6 seperate channels of sound ( same as what you described 5.1, only with i more channel so in effect you can have 6 bullets from seperate speakers) and one low range stream for the sub. 7.1 is the same as 6.1 but the 6 and 7 speakers output the same sound in mono, you still get 6 channels of sound.

    DTS matrix 6.1 is DTS 5.1 channels of sound and the amp uses the rear channel signals and mixes a new channel out these and outputs it into 6 speaker. Dolby Digital EX does the same, this is why you can get your rear surround speakers playing a normal 5.1 track, basically it is 5.1 with the 6 made up of the 2 rears. The only true 6.1 track is DTS ES discrete.

    Films that I know of are all the LOTR ex Versions and Blade 2. I dont think I have anyy others in my library but I would imagine there are more.

    Hope this helps
     
  5. pez

    pez
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    funny thing is that dts es discrete doesnt exist in the cinemas, all cinema sound for rear channels is matrixed!

    btw, i had a complaint originally about LOTR special editions DTS ES Discrete mix, in that the rears werent used much (if at all) - this appears to have been down to me using a ps2 to route the optical digital to my denon 2805. Ive since bought a toshiba prog scan dvd player and hooked up the coax digital out to my amp, et voila, the rears woke up!

    pez
     
  6. soni

    soni
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    The Gooner and Pez: Thanks for your replies guys!

    I was beginning to think that my Denon 2910 player was outdated allready - only bought it a couple of weeks ago - i now feel relieved!

    Don't know whether you guys can help out with another problem i've got, or maybe i should post it in the DVD section, but here goes!

    I've got the Tosh DLP, which is apparently progressive scan, and upscales images below 720P??, but apparently the DVD player also has a scaler (i trust progressive scan and scalers are the same thing) but my question is how do i know which is doing the scaling. I can't actually notice any visible difference between the different scaling modes on the DVD player i.e., 480, 720, 1080, although the picture does switch off for a second whilst its changed over, and was wondering whether i'm actually viewing the picture with the best scaling device i.e., the DVD players internatl scaler? Naturally i want to be using the DVD players scaler, as i believe this would be the better one - Fouroja or whatever its called - and was wondering if theres a way of identifying which one is doing the scaling, and if indeed its being done at all. This might sound like a stupid question to you guys - but i am still learning!!
     
  7. The Gooner

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    well to be honest I havnt got a clue, we are still learning :)

    I would have thought that if DVD player was set to progressive scan and the TV was then it should give best possible, My DVD player hasnt Denon DVD700,(cheapy denon but still a great player)
    In a word sorry m8 cant really help you here.
     
  8. The Gooner

    The Gooner
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    Pez films seem to sound better in my living room than in pictures anyway, the sound is thrown around alot more at home than in theatres, well my humble opinion anyway
     
  9. Jase

    Jase
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    Yes. Basically, that's it. The DVD player will pass the signal and it's the amp that will do the decoding. :)

    Check this link for a list of DTS titles including DTS-ES Discrete.

    http://www.spannerworks.net/reference/10_6a.asp
     
  10. Jase

    Jase
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    Depends how you're connecting to it. The scaling in the DVD player is only available from the DVI output. If you're connecting via Component, S-Video etc then the Projector will be scaling the image to it's native resolution.

    I'd imagine 720p would be the best option from the DVD if the projectors native res is 720p. :)
     
  11. Eddy Boy

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    Progressive scan and scalers are not the same.
    Progressive scan or de-interlacers change the normal scan from lines 1 then 3 then 5 to the end to lines 1 the n2 the n3 etc.

    A scaler takes what ever image and converts the number of lines of information from your standard 480 to 720 or 1080.

    Well as far as I know :)
     

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