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Denon 3802 & Bass Management

Discussion in 'AV Receivers & Amplifiers' started by Tompo, Dec 6, 2001.

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  1. Tompo

    Tompo
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    I have just got the 3802 and am very happy with it overall. However I have noticed one thing; when listening in PL or PL11 mode there seems to be a distinct lack of bass coming from my front L&R speakers. I have set these to large (B&W 603's) and the rest small. My only concern is that my last amp (Sony TA-VA8ES) really pushed out the bass in standard prologic compared to the Denon, without the need to turn on the subwoofer. Anyone else found this?

    Thanks.
     
  2. Noman

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    I´ve noticed the same when I play sources that are not PL, like some TV-programs or music CD:s. Must be a sideeffect of the new way of processing the sound...

    Anyone have a scientific answer?
    /Anders
     
  3. caylem

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    I have the same problem with my Q150, but as yet no solution
     
  4. Dave Taylor

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    I got the 2802 last week (virtually the same as 3802, 6 power amps instead of 7) and I thought the same. I watched 2 programmes that sounded fine on my old Yamaha Pro-Logic but very thin on the Denon.

    I have full range front L/S Tannoy 611’s, a full range centre Tannoy 609 and a home built 400W sub.

    I also found that increasing the bass to full (+12) had very little effect.

    I tried all possible permutations, crossover, small centre etc but no real improvement. In fact I had the amplifiers on 7 days approval and have taken it back today.

    Not sure where I go from here apart from to back to my yammy and wait to watch T2 in DTS ES
     
  5. Dave Taylor

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    Well there seems to be a lot of 2802/3802 owners on this forum anybody else have any comments on this matter.

    Since taking my 2802 back I watched the same programme later that night with my old yammy RXV590RDS and it sounded a lot better.

    So where has all the Bass gone in PL or PLII
     
  6. Skid Solo

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    I also experimented with my 3802 last night, by playing Independence Day both on VCR and DVD, the DVD Dolby Digital signal semed to have a lot of base and sounded great. However the video sound appeared to be totally lacking base. Especially if I compare with my old Pro Logic system (only a Sony pro logic decoder with very small speakers and a Sony sub, can't remember model number) which used to shake the doors on the house during the intro scene, where the ship's shadow goes over the moon.

    I am so far very dissaponited with the 3802 in PL and PLII mode, However its is fantastic in Dolby Digital and DTS.
     
  7. bob007

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    I have the DENON 3801 hasn't got DPL II but has got DTS NEO6 and DPL have no problem with the bass output when watching SKY or VIDEO. Reviews say that DPL II is a tad better than DTS NEO6 but reading these few posts not better in the bass department. looks as if i chose the right model again. ;)
     
  8. jspone

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    With my 3802, I'm happy with the bass output to the front speakers in DPL II mode. However, with the subwoofer set to LFE only (instead of LFE +Main), I get nothing out of the sub.

    John
     
  9. Colger

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    I am currently playing a CD in DPL II in Music mode and the bass is excellent on both the front speakers and the sub. All fronts set to large and the rears set to small.
    I guess it depends entirely on the signal fed to the 3802 - Im currently playing a CD entitled 'Chilled Ibiza' on a Panasonic RV60 DVD unit and there is plenty of bass.
    Im not sure of the frequency range of the audio on a VCR or a Radio or TV signal but if the frequency isnt fed to the 3802 then it will not be heard.
    I must admit tho' that the 3802 is exceeding all my expectations.
     
  10. Dave Taylor

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    I did an A/B comparisson betwwen my Yammy & 2802 in normal Stereo mode and I could hear no difference. (Bass was the same).

    PLII music is different as you can bias the sound away from the center .

    The frequency response of Hi-Fi VHS is very good, but don't forget I am comparing them both from the same source.
     
  11. sraper

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    I had a quick demo of an AVC-11SR the other day. and I must admit it did sound good (however £1800 good I am not so sure). DPLII sounded good on the couple of DD2.0 DVDs that we tried. It did a good job of locking the dialogue to the centre speaker whilst everything else seemed to come from the other speakers.

    However we played a couple of music CDs (from a CD player not the DVD) first in Pure Direct mode and then DPLII. Yuk!!!! Pure Direct was very good but switch to DPLII and the sound went all woolly and the bass definately went as well.

    I guess the 3802 will exhibit the same behaviuor being a cut down version with tuner added on.
     
  12. laurie

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    I guess the 3802 will exhibit the same behaviuor being a cut down version with tuner added on. [/B][/QUOTE]

    Guys you are doing a good job in discouraging me from getting the amp! I cannot believe Denon would produce such an amp lacking bass but it is an av receiver!! mostly for ht use
    cheers Laurie
     
  13. Noman

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    Really it´s not a problem. VHS recordings or a DVD with "Dolby pro logic" on it sounds awsome, almost like DD 5.1. With enough Bass!!

    TV shows (Stereo/mono) and music cd:s get less bass and that is what I really want to now, is this specific to the Denon processor or has it to do with PL and PL II?
     
  14. Skid Solo

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    I tried some further tests on this last night, and I fond that if I connected my VCR direclty to the Denon 3802 rather than taking the sound from my Loewe Vitros TV the base was improved, still was not as good as I would like it but far better than direclty from the TV. This included both from TV stations and VCR's. I assume therefore that the Loewe must have some sound processing built in, anybody and ideas ?

    I originally did not connect the VCR or Cable box directly to the amp just took the sound from the TV to cut down on cablying. I shall now invest in some cables to connect the amp direclty to both the VCR and Cable Box.

    However I do still agree that PLII and the Denon is lacking base.
     
  15. MartinCo

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    I specially watched some movies on sky tonight to compare bass (with DVD or video where possible) on my new Denon 2802

    so I watched 13th Warrior (cheesy but still like this film for some reason), Gladiator (only the good bits) & Star Wars.

    Either going from the TV's phono outs, or direct from the Sky digibox, I got excellent bass... in fact, surprisingly good effect... almost as good as 5.1 in some cases...

    I have DPII set to cinema, eq on, all speakers large, bass is on std crossover & LFE+Main. I've got the centre & rear channels set +2 on their levels as well.


    no problems here for me... very impressed with DPII compared to standard DP on my old Sony amp.
     
  16. burkey

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    I have just taken delivery of my 3802 and took some advice at the shop before I wired it up .

    This set up worked for me : all speakers set to small so that the base is sent to the sub, crossover set to 80 , rel Q200E wired up via phono leads to both connections .

    I also found that ajusting the base levels via the amp made no difference . However by ajusting the sub I am getting great resuls and am very pleased with the amp . A great improvement over my Yamaha RXV795RDS .:) :) :)

    If anyone may have been put off buying this amp dont be , get a demo its great .
     
  17. philmate

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    I set up a Yam amp and speaker system for a friend a while ago and even though it does'nt have Pro II we all thought the sound from Sky was weak so I set the amp to No centre and you could tell immediately a big improvement in the bass department and overall sound...try it if you already have'nt.
     
  18. iabbott

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    I have a Denon 1802 with PLII and no sub. Find that the cinema mode lacks bass, but the music mode is better. Also with the music mode you can adjust the "width" of the centre channel, which seems to increase the bass to the "large" front speakers.
    Not sure if the bass would be better on cinema mode if I had a sub. Does anyone know if there are any differences in processing between the cinema or music modes, or are there just different levels of control?
    Thanks
     
  19. Dave Taylor

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    A varied number of replies, so is this just a Denon thing or any other ProLogic receiver owners notice anything.

    The new Yamaha RX-V1200 (with PLII) has just arrived in the country Yesterday and should be in the shops by Friday, love to here from anybody who gets one.
     
  20. Tompo

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    Thanks for the replies everyone. I'm still not convinced that all is as it should be. After weeks of experimenting, the only ways that I can find of getting decent bass out of the front L+R in PLI,IIC&M modes is by :

    1)Turning off the Center Speaker (best results, but not ideal!).

    2)Turining off Tone Defeat and increasing bass to +12, still no where as defined as the first option. Only problem is it goes OTT in Dolby Digital - to the point where you have to turn defeat back on again.

    3)Use DTS Neo 6 Music Mode instead of PL, which does send bass information to the front L+R and is almost comparable to option one in its depth.

    Thanks Again

    Tompo.
     
  21. philmate

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    If anyone could explain.... why does the new 3802, the Yam 620 and any other amps? have better bass when centre is sent to L/R.

    Philmate.
     
  22. Paden

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    Hello all!
    Has anyone made any developments on this topic since last year?!
    I was thinking of giving Denon a bell during the week & see what they suggest.
    Cheers, Paul.
     
  23. Jules

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    Hi guys,

    I guarantee this works.
    I've been a Denon AV amp owner for many years and think they are the best. BUT, the bass management can be troublesome.

    Switch the phase control on your sub 180 degrees if you think the sound is thin, and hey presto... Unfortunately this appears to be necessary when switching between analogue and digital connections, or when switching between between direct mode and PL.

    I bet it works ! Only you'll need to switch it round again, and again, and again.

    I've compromised and make sure all my stereo sources use an analogue connection and all my PL sources use a digital connection (or Vice Versa), and it stops the constant need to use the phase button on my sub.

    I once wrote to Denon, and they denied it was a problem, blaming acoustics and other things.
    But, I don't think so!

    Cheers.
     
  24. Dave Taylor

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    I would be very interested to hear what they have to say,
     
  25. slay

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    I got a 2802 last week - (just could not justify the price of a 3802), and was worried about the bass management trouble mentioned in this thread.

    When first installed i thought "what have I done !!!" the bass was almost none existant on all analogue modes, a week of fiddling and comparing and I'm a happy camper.

    Fronts set to Large, Centre to Small, Rears to Small, Crossover at 80 hz and LFE set to LFE+Main. Almost too much bass sometimes but 1000% better than standard settings.

    Cool amp but bit miffed that the OSD not available via component output for my tosh RPTV.

    Steve
     
  26. Paden

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    Hello all!
    e-mailed Denon on Monday & got no reply, so I phoned them today & although friendly got no real answer other than try a system reset or return to my original dealer.
    Has anyone tried upping their sub setting to give more bass in PLII mode but also reduce the DTS/Dolby Digital LFE in the "sound parrameters" menu to keep things equal there?
    Do you think thta might work?
    Cheers, Paul.
     
  27. Raj

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    Slay,

    I've noticed exactly the same thing with my 3802 and mission 783 fronts.

    I tried a subwoofer setting of LFE+Main and this did dramatically improve things for analogue sources.

    However as I only have a single Q150 I don't want to overload it with both LFE and Main signals.

    The description for "LFE+Main" in the manual is rather confusing.

    Am I right in understanding this setting as: "Both LFE signals and the Bass signals from Front L+R below the crossover point will be sent to the subwoofer, the Front L+R will also continue to recieve the full range"

    Raj
     
  28. Dave Taylor

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    Paul

    I understand what you a saying but when I auditioned the 2802 it was a general lack of LF not just Sub Level i.e. below 80Hz

    The sound was quit thin in PLII, fine in stereo mode in fact I did some tests and found in stereo mode the frequency response was flat down to 20Hz, unfortunately I did not have a chance to do further test in PLII before my 7 days evaluation period was up.
     
  29. Suki

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    Dear All,

    Suggest you read the string in the forunm on speakers and subwoofers entitled something like dm602s and rel q200 - I got some great advice on setting up my 3802 with my set up - it really does sound better than I had ever hoped and my problem was too much bass not enough.

    Great great great amp - streets ahead of the kenwood receiver I had before

    Alan
     
  30. Tompo

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    I have no problem with Bass when using an active Subwoofer and setting the Denon to LFE+Main. My gripe is that as with my old amp along with others I've owned, I've never needed the reinforcement of a SW to bring the Bass up to an acceptable level when listening in ProLogic. Maybe this shortcoming is just a feature/flaw of the new format? Saying that though, surely switching back to the plain old ProLogic setting (which is meant to be 100% backwards compatible) would give a similar bass response to that which I received in my previous amps. I've spent some time closely listening to PLII Cinema mode and unless my ears are deceiving me the majority of what bass is being produced is coming out of the centre channel. This is the case even though my centre (B&W CC6) is set to small and my L&R's (603's) are set to large. I've even tried telling the amp I've no sub attached but it makes no difference, the centre still takes the bass. It seems strange that when you disable the centre channel all is fine in the bass department for the L&R channels, which makes me think it's hogging it when it is enabled?? PLII Music mode is interesting. I've actually got a good bass response in this mode by adjusting the Centre Width Control to 4, which strangely enough spreads the sound that's sent to the centre to the L&R channels aswell, which just seems to confirm my thoughts of the centre hogging the bass info. Shame this feature isn't in the Cinema Mode.

    Unless anyone else can shed light on this, I might try and E'mail Dolby Labs to see what they say.

    Cheers

    Tompo
     

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